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Doug's Message Boards :: Muzzleloader Forums :: Savage Muzzleloading Message Board :: The 10ML-II Bolt

Author Topic: The 10ML-II Bolt (Read 2,469 times)
rossman40
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The 10ML-II Bolt
« Thread Started on Oct 28, 2008, 12:40am »
The pre-Accutrigger 10ML-II bolt

With people having misfires they sometimes blame the bolt. The most common bolt problem is not having the bolt handle all the way down. What happens then is the firing pin will not have enough travel. Another problem I have seen at least with pre-AccuTrigger Savages is trigger adjustment. If you take out all the backlash the sear can contact the trigger and slow the sear down, look at the trigger just behind the point where the sear engages and see if there is any scrapes. If so, increase backlash and see if it corrects the problem. You have to remember that the Savage firing pin is fairly light so you want nothing holding it back, even oil or grit in the bolt head.

Savage is not a fan of the shooter disassembling the bolt and does not even mention it in the owner’s manual. While not real hard I would encourage anyone that thinks that this may be too hard for them to take it to a competent gunsmith.

We will start off looking at the bolt. Notice that the notch on the bottom of the bolt handle lines up with the cocking piece pin when cocked. Also just below the cocking piece pin is the slot where the action screw is when the bolt is closed.

The open end of the horseshoe of the bolt head basically lines up with the bolt handle.

To check firing pin protrusion and/or start dis-assembly you have to de-cock the firing pin. If you have a strong thumb you can push the cocking piece pin off the notch. Make sure you finger is below the slot or you may get a good pinch. If your thumb isn't strong enough you can push it off the notch using a block of wood or plastic.

With the firing pin de-cocked we can check firing pin protrusion. You want between .050 and .070", a US dime is .050". I like to have mine on the heavy end but do not go beyond .100" as you may pierce primers. The firing pin protrusion here is at the extreme end. A dimple in the primer should be at least .040".

Lets say we have to dis-assemble the bolt, we need a 1/4" allen and it is best to put the bolt handle loosely in a vice. I have seen guys bend and break the cocking piece pin trying to loosen the bolt assembly screw while the bolt is in the action. You also do not want to tighten the vice up on the bolt body as you may deform it. At the factory I think the same gorilla they have tighten the barrel nuts also tightens the bolt assembly screw. Once we get it loose the rest is easy.

Give the bolt body a shake and the sheet metal cocking piece sleeve will be back or can be pulled back more to allow the cocking piece pin to be removed. The cocking piece sleeve has a slot with a larger diameter cut-out at the end of the slot that allows you to remove the cocking piece pin, the sleeve has to be all the way to the rear for the pin to come out.

The firing pin assembly can now be removed. The cocking piece sleeve is still on the firing pin assembly.

The bolt head retaining pin should come out with a tap or light push and then the bolt head will come out.

Now it is clean up time, get rid of all grit, sludge and GI gold. You just want to wipe down the parts with a light oil to prevent rust. If I plan on hunting in nasty freezing weather my favorite lube is a graphite based lube for lock cylinders called "Lock-Ease". Avoid heavy oils and grease. Now the firing pin assembly.

Now that everything is clean you can check the firing pin protrusion without re-assembly by just putting the bolt head on the firing pin.

If you have to adjust the best way I found is to use a pair of wire strippers. I have one pair that is perfect that is for coax but those are at a jobsite. You want to catch the spring pretty close to the stop nut (half the distance shown in the photo), you have to watch as the firing pin is "D" shaped in that area and if you catch it to low on the flat it will stop you from pushing down. Push down on the spring and the lock washer should drop down also. Turn the stop nut clockwise to increase firing pin protrusion. Make sure the four flats on the lock washer goes back into the four slots in the stop nut, the lock washer will not turn on the firing pin. I have a jig block made that lets me do it one handed but it is hiding somewhere.

Once you have your firing pin protrusion set and the lock washer is in place we have to look at the other end. In the pre-AccuTrigger days one thing that Savage shooters did was to relieve some firing pin spring compression to ease up on sear pressure, NOT ADVISED. What happens is you have just a few threads of the firing pin (which is “D” shaped on this end also) catching in the cocking piece and those can strip dropping the firing pin and possibly causing an accidental discharge. Another one of the most common mis-adjustments is that when the bolt is de-cocked or fired, instead of the firing pin assembly coming to rest against the bolt head, it is instead being held by the cocking piece pin. I have seen with centerfires after a thousand rounds or more (aggravated by dry fire trigger practice) this causes problems due to the cocking piece pin taking the impact instead of the firing pin stop nut against the bolt head. I have seen bent/cracked/broke cocking piece pins, the cocking piece hole and the threads where it screws on to the firing pin with extreme wear, even the bolt body mushroomed. It is just a "point of inspection" during maintenance to de-cock the bolt and check firing pin protrusion and make sure you can wiggle the cocking piece pin. Every teardown maybe not but maybe at least every 300 rounds. It's preventive maintenance. You want to adjust the cocking piece so that when de-cocked you have about .020" clearance between the cocking piece pin shaft and the bolt body (the “A” dimension in the photo below). When assembled and in the de-cocked or fired position you should be able to wiggle the pin a little bit.

In the photo above the “B” area is called the cocking ramp, this area should be free of burrs. If the bolt is not closed all the way during firing the cocking piece pin will contact at point “C” and not enough protrusion to set off the primer.

You have to align the hole in the cocking piece so that the slot in the cocking piece sleeve lines up AND engages in the slots in the cocking piece lock washer. If you look at the sleeve there is a hole at one end of the slot and "teeth" at that end of the sleeve.

You want to make sure everything lines up before inserting the firing pin assembly into the bolt body. Pay close attention that the "teeth" of the cocking piece sleeve engages the lock washer. Much like the other end the lock washer will not turn on the firing pin but the cocking piece will.

Install the bolt head and the bolt head retaining pin into the bolt body, make sure the bolt head is lined up right and the retaining pin has the hole in the right direction. Drop the firing pin in the bolt body and it should go all the way.

Insert the sleeve and line up the hole at the end of the slot with the hole in the cocking piece and insert the cocking piece pin. put the bolt handle on and start screwing the bolt assembly screw in. A small drop of blue Loctite on the threads is advisable. De-cocked you should not have any resistance till about the last 1/8-3/16".

If for some reason you have resistance before you reach this point something is wrong and you better stop and see what is wrong. Once it is snug you have to cock the firing pin before re-installing the bolt into the action. Just catch the cocking piece pin on an edge of wood (coffee table, kitchen counter, etc, etc) and push it up into the notch.

Hopefully you put the bolt head and the bolt handle on right so everything lines up right. Do a good function check and you should be ready to rock n roll.

People have asked about the 10ML-I bolt. It is basically a centerfire bolt with front and rear baffles and a longer firing pin. Adjustments are the same. You do have to watch which way the bolthead is oriented since it contains the extractor and ejector.

Another question that is asked is about hotrod parts. Wolff does make heavier firing pin springs. They list the factory spring at 28lbs and have a 32 and 36lb replacement spring. I am pretty sure the ML spring is the same as the Short Action (SA) spring but not 100%. The heavier spring may decrease your lock time by a few milliseconds but it will also increase sear pressure so I would not recommend a switch to a heavier spring on a hunting rifle.

Dave Tubbs did offer his Speedlock titanium firing pin with a chrome silicon spring but IIRC it was for Long Actions (LA) only. He doesn't show the firing pin anymore (price if I remember was over $100) but still shows the CS spring for a 110 ($10.95), if it is for a LA then it will not work in a SA. Supposedly with his Speedlock system the bullet has left the bore before a stock pin/spring strikes the primer.

Bolt handles are just about a swap-out. Sharp Shooter Supply (SSS) offers the assortment. The only difference between a ML bolt handle and a CenterFire (CF) bolt handle is a small ramp on the ML bolt handle which you could add with a file. Personally we are not on a rapid fire situation and I prefer the smaller factory handle for hunting, less chance of catching it on something.

Any questions feel free to PM me or if I screwed this up tell me so I can fix it. I tried hard to make this a pretty clear how-to, I know some of you guys like a lot of pictures.

« Last Edit: Aug 11, 2009, 12:03pm by rossman40 » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged
DW
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #1 on Oct 28, 2008, 4:20am »
Nice post.
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CORVAIR
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #2 on Oct 28, 2008, 4:35am »
Beautifully illustrated! Took time to put this and the great photo's together. Thank you rossman40 for doing this.
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tar12
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #3 on Oct 28, 2008, 5:02am »
Edge,
If not already there, this would be a great addition to the tips and hints section.

Done
http://dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?ac....ead=3368&page=1
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2008, 5:42am by edge » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged
whyohe
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #4 on Oct 28, 2008, 5:17am »
very well done!!

i went and comared my 2 bolts and the one that i had set still was not out far enough! .050? my original pre accutrigger was never protruding that much. so i reset it as you showed and it looks and feels good. the trigger actually feels better? when decocked the bolt head always wiggled alittle and now it doesnt! and the protrusion is good.

thanks Rossman, YOU DA MAN!
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2008, 6:17am by whyohe » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged
hunt hard and hunt long BUT above all enjoy yourself and your surroundings
bigmoose
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #5 on Oct 28, 2008, 5:17am »
Excellent Presentation, 5 stars
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hunter
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #6 on Oct 28, 2008, 5:21am »
Thanks; rossman40, for the very detailed instructions. Nice pictures ect.

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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #7 on Oct 28, 2008, 7:48am »
Everything is clear; I don't think I'll have to send the parts to you for re-assembly. Very much appreciated.

Harley
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jims
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #8 on Oct 28, 2008, 12:03pm »
Very well done.
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Flatland Hunter
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #9 on Oct 28, 2008, 12:16pm »
How often would one clean the bolt/pin?
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Robbie
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #10 on Oct 28, 2008, 12:50pm »
Excellent post, never had a bolt apart before, Rossman I believe you illustrated this well enough my kids would be able to accomplish the task.

Bird
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whyohe
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #11 on Oct 28, 2008, 1:10pm »
flatland i dont think you should have much need for this. only if you are having problems. i shot T-7 for years and i got some blow back and it caused some corrosion in the bolt head.
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rossman40
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #12 on Oct 28, 2008, 2:22pm »
It is one of those things that if you only shoot 25 rounds a year in perfect weather you may never have to do. Much like a total dis-assembly of the trigger group. But if your out there on a dusty range several times a year or if you are shooting some loads with a little blow by you might have to do as needed maybe every couple of years. Then there are times when your hunting hard and your rifle decides to take a swim or a mud bath and it just has to be done.

I shoot 100-150 rounds a year and I've had my rifle 9 years in December and this is the fourth time I've dis-assembled the bolt, mainly to do the post this last time. I had to do it after my first hunting trip because I had the firing pin ice up and my field expedient fix was to blast it with WD-40 so I had to tear it down for cleaning.
« Last Edit: Oct 28, 2008, 2:46pm by rossman40 » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged
richard
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #13 on Oct 28, 2008, 6:42pm »
Rossman.....Thanks for putting together a well presented post. The description and pictures are excellent.
Richard
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rossman40
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #14 on Oct 29, 2008, 11:07am »
Thanks for all the comments guys. It is my small contribution to the board and a attempt to unlock more of the mysteries of the 10ML. I like to tell people if you can't come here and learn something then you are a f#@^ing know-it-all.

Whyohe, one of the most common mis-adjustments is that when the bolt is de-cocked instead of the firing pin assembly coming to rest against the bolt head, it is instead being held by the cocking piece pin. I have seen with centerfires after a thousand rounds or more (aggravated by dry fire trigger practice) this causes problems due to the cocking piece pin taking the impact instead of the firing pin stop nut against the bolt head. I have seen bent/cracked/broke cocking piece pins, the cocking piece hole and the threads where it screws on to the firing pin with extreme wear, even the bolt body mushroomed. It is just a "point of inspection" during maintenance to de-cock the bolt and check firing pin protrusion and make sure you can wiggle the cocking piece pin. Every teardown maybe not but maybe at least every 300 rounds. It's preventive maintenance.

Another maintenance tip is corrosion on coil springs. A light surface rust is OK but if there is pits the spring should be replaced. Once the rust gets by the surface hardness it is like a cancer to most spring steels.
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fowlplay
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #15 on Oct 29, 2008, 12:19pm »

Oct 29, 2008, 11:07am, rossman40 wrote:
Thanks for all the comments guys. It is my small contribution to the board and a attempt to unlock more of the mysteries of the 10ML. I like to tell people if you can't come here and learn something then you are a f#@^ing know-it-all.

You f#@^ing A right about that comment.
Steve
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Rifleman
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #16 on Oct 29, 2008, 1:20pm »
You are a heck of a teacher Rossman. Great job as always!
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whyohe
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #17 on Oct 29, 2008, 4:24pm »
Rossman, i'd like to replace the bolt head but like you said i doubt they would sell me just the bolt head. so i used metal flitz and got it all off i hope and oiled it and hopefully slowed it way down.
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bman5575
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #18 on Nov 2, 2008, 9:41pm »
How do you take bolt or firing position out of half cocked position
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SW
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #19 on Nov 2, 2008, 10:22pm »
This is one of the best posts ever. Thanks.
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CraigF
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #20 on Nov 3, 2008, 12:08am »
Rossman, thanks for a really great post! It is easy to follow and well documented with pictures. Thanks!
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blackhawk7204
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #21 on Nov 3, 2008, 8:42am »
You can buy just the bolt head from savage. I bought one and used it to convert a rem 700ML to hold the primer like a savage.
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Ronmar
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #22 on Nov 3, 2008, 8:56am »

Excellent post. I don't post very often but I read daily.

Ronmar
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deadeye
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #23 on Nov 3, 2008, 9:22am »

Nov 3, 2008, 8:42am, blackhawk7204 wrote:
You can buy just the bolt head from savage. I bought one and used it to convert a rem 700ML to hold the primer like a savage.
im all ears on this on,very interested,could you post pics &intructions on this 700ml savage bolt conversion,starting a new thread of course!
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zakjak221
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #24 on Nov 3, 2008, 2:12pm »
Rossman,

Repeating, but very well done!!
Thanks for good info & pics.

Mark
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rossman40
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #25 on Nov 3, 2008, 7:55pm »
Bman, Just grab the bolt like in picture #3 in your left hand. With your thumb push the cocking piece pin off the notch, make sure you finger is below the slot or you may get a good pinch. If your thumb isn't strong enough you can push it off the notch using a block of wood or plastic.

People have asked about the 10ML-I bolt. It is a centerfire bolt With front and rear baffles and a longer firing pin. Adjustments are the same. You do have to watch which way the bolthead is oriented.

Another question that is asked is about hotrod parts. Wolff does make heavier firing pin springs. They list the factory spring at 28lbs and have a 32 and 36lb replacement spring. I am pretty sure the ML spring is the same as the Short Action (SA) spring but not 100%. The heavier spring may decrease your lock time by a few milliseconds but it will also increase sear pressure so I would not recommend a switch to a heavier spring on a hunting rifle.

Dave Tubbs did offer his Speedlock titanium firing pin with a chrome silicon spring but IIRC it was for Long Actions (LA) only. He doesn't show the firing pin anymore (price if I remember was over $100) but still shows the CS spring for a 110 ($10.95), if it is for a LA then it will not work in a SA. Supposedly with his Speedlock system the bullet has left the bore before a stock pin/spring strikes the primer.

Bolt handles are just about a swap-out. Sharp Shooter Supply (SSS) offers the assortment. The only difference between a ML bolt handle and a CenterFire (CF) bolt handle is a small ramp which you could add with a file. Personally we are not on a rapid fire situation and I prefer the factory handle for hunting, less chance of catching it on something.

Next how to, the pre-accutrigger trigger.
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Rifleman
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #26 on Nov 4, 2008, 3:19am »
Hey Rossman, how about a thread on the HK91 Bolt group! hehehe
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #27 on Nov 4, 2008, 4:51am »
Excellent post, Now that took some doing to put pic together, You should get a That-a-Boy? May try this after the season, Oh iam buying another Savage ML II, The wife wants one now as she like to shoot mine, just have to change he loads alittle, Plus she thinks the Gun Vice i bought is Sweet(BenchMaster), Takes all the recoil out of it? Next she'll want a new bow 2, I have to draw the line somewhere?
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runningdog
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Re: The 10ML-II Bolt
« Reply #28 on Nov 4, 2008, 6:15pm »
Outstanding post. After taking mine apart, cleaning and inspecting AND putting it back together-I would have paid for this information. Thanks very much Rossman.
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