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Post by MountainMan on Jul 14, 2006 10:23:20 GMT -5
Well, I've been to the range five or six times since my last report. The most significant change since my last report involves my breech plug. First, I have stopped using anti-seize or teflon. I just spray it with silicone spray or put a drop or two of gun oil on the threads and wipe it in with an oily rag. I never shoot more than 13 or maybe 21 shots per range session, so it is removed and scrubbed after every ten to twenty shots. Second, rather than cleaning out the carbon after every range trip (usually 10 to 13 shots), I let it build up for over fifty shots until I got a stable "cone" of carbon in there with no more accretion. Then I started redeveloping my loads. Also, I got more H322 a while back and now have two pounds of the same lot (had, actually--I've already shot 3,640 grains, or over a half pound, of it). Between switching to a new lot and using a different breach plug approach, I needed to start from square one and work up a new load. (All loads use the fully-fouled plug, one alcohol swab and one dry swab between shots, no subbase/wad, 300 grain T/C Shockwaves, and HPH-24 sabots (supplied), at least ten minute wait between shots and I wipe the outside of the barrel with denatured alcohol after swabbing to help it cool faster.) I shot groups from 80 to 83 grains, but all of them were pretty rough, worse on average than the old lot of powder. I suspected that the RW vent with about 150 shots on it was starting to open up, so I stuck a new one in. Next trip, I shot 1 group each of 83, 84, and 85 grains. Bingo! Things came together, with 0.6", 1.3", and 3.5" groups, respectively. ------------------------------- The next day, I shot 1 group each of 82.0, 82.5, 83.0, and 83.5 grains. The results:  (two bullets in bottom hole)    That's a 1.2" average across 4 groups of varying charge weights, with a 1.1" average on three groups varying a half grain above and below the sweet spot, which itself yielded another 1.0" group. ------------------------------ The next day, I shot a couple of 4198 groups, then one more of 83.0 grains of H322. I got another one of these:  Up to that point, I had a .75" average for all groups shot with this load. ----------------------------- The next day (fourth day in a row), I went to shoot four more groups with this load. After a warm-up shot (I shoot one at the beginning of every trip), I realized my shoulder was SORE! But, I went ahead and shot for groups. First group was 1.6", as I recall (don't have those two targets with me right now). Not terrible, but not what I was expecting from that load. But the next group was 3.0".  I must confess, while a single day at a time had never done that to me before, by this fourth day of shooting, my shoulder was discolored and abraided sufficiently to have slight scabbing/roughness for the next few days. ------------------------- I went back this morning and shot two more groups with the 83.0 grain load. I can't scan them now, but I got a 0.7" group (pretty much identical to the last target above but centered over the bullseye) and a 2.1" group. I had two touching on the last group there and think I pulled the very last shot of the day to open it from sub- to two-moa. ------------------------- One thing I noticed, though, is that while I've in general gotten very small groups with this load, between range trips, the POI has not stayed the same! Notice on the third target displayed above, the POI is about .5" low and about 2.2" right. The last target above has an average POI about .25" low and about 1.25" right. The bad groups on day four were about 2" high and 1" right. My last group, today, was exactly centered about 1.5" high. I haven't touched my windage/elevation adjustments, scope rings or bases, or action screws between range sessions. -------------------------- So, my questions: 1. Could being bruised from multiple days of shooting a heavy load account for groups 2 to 3 times the norm for a good load? Or should I suspect the load itself? 2. What could be causing my POI to shift so much between range sessions, especially given the small groups it is shooting with that same load? If it the scope or mounts were bad, I wouldn't expect to get multiple sub-moa groups, or an average of 1.5" across five days of shooting that load, even with one really "off" day. Exclude that "off" day, and the load averages 1.1". |
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Post by edge on Jul 14, 2006 11:39:22 GMT -5
Nice shooting  Instead of just shooting for groups, add one more thing. When you set up, concentrate on the first shot and as soon as the trigger breaks close your eyes and call the shot. Mark that shot and your call. See if your POI on the first shot moves as much as the group POI. I suspect that it won't since you are not looking at any holes yet and you will only see the bull. edge. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 14, 2006 16:06:16 GMT -5
Nice post M-man,
It looks as if you are giving yourself a nice pounding! "Scabbing?" Wow are you breaking skin?? Whew, I thought I was tough!
The group wandering could be a result of your pain....maybe.
Your completely fouled breechplug could also be to blame but I really like the idea and also like that someone as credible as yourself is doing this and not me. I don't like a crudded up plug although it may prove to be the answer for consistency.
I've pestered the heck out of RB to make me a tool that keeps the plug foul free between shot and would really like to get my hands on it soon. This would shore up both ends of the spectrum.
Put some ice on that tenderized meat and keep shooting.....maybe you'll build up a callus!
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 14, 2006 16:37:06 GMT -5
... It looks as if you are giving yourself a nice pounding! "Scabbing?" Wow are you breaking skin?? ... Not so much a real scab as abrasion sufficient to cause the skin to need to heal. For a couple days there it felt kind of like mild sand paper or a beard after a not-too close shave. I waited five days from that four-day shooting spree before I shot this morning and I though I was all healed, but several of the shots caused me to actually wince and rub my shoulder muscles--and that is not normal. Until that four-days-in-a-row, it just felt more like a punch in the arm that jarred me, but wasn't painful. I think I will wait at least a full week before I try to sneak off to the range again this time. Now if only I could get a .40/.35 or .45/.40 sabot with the same SD/BC as the 300 SST and reduce the pounding a little... |
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Post by ozark on Jul 14, 2006 18:01:40 GMT -5
Great post Mountainman. Not many of us serious enough to take the punishment. The angle of light across ther range can result in lateral dispersion from day to day. You are shooting well and if your shoulder isn't to sore you should try patting yourself on the back. You are making me want to go back to our private range and dent some primers.
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Post by dave d. on Jul 15, 2006 7:27:29 GMT -5
[quote Now if only I could get a .40/.35 or .45/.40 sabot with the same SD/BC as the 300 SST and reduce the pounding a little... mm,there is have rb but a pac-nor barrel on for you ;D.i commend you on you punishing test.good shooting and stop beating your self up ;D. |
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Post by RBinAR on Jul 15, 2006 7:38:28 GMT -5
8-)I have shot a number of loads with powder charges in excess of 80 grains. I have two words of advice for anyone who cares to try it. SISSY BAG.
Buy a bag of shot and protect that shoulder. Heck even a simple bath towel can provide enough relief to be worth the effort.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying about the zero shifting but it seems to me you are getting a lower impact with more powder and that's normal. Raising the speed even a few feet per second will make the impact lower with a heavy kicker. If you are referring to the exact same load zero should not deflect much but even the center can go off 3/4" without too much concern.
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 7:48:39 GMT -5
mm,there is have rb but a pac-nor barrel on for you ;D.i commend you on you punishing test.good shooting and stop beating your self up ;D. Yeah, but the only two bullets are the 200 grain SST and 200 grain Expander. The Expander has the BC of a hand-tossed brick. The SST doesn't have great BC, and it appears to cause greater surface damage and explosive impacts than the .452 250 SST does. What I would love to see is Barnes make a 200 and 250 grain .400 TMZ. Then we could shoot a 250 grain bullet with the BC of the 300 grain SST, and with lower powder charges. Or, shoot the 200 grain and know you'll get good penetration and less excess destruction. I wonder if Hawk Bullets could construct a custom bullet for the purpose? |
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Post by edge on Jul 15, 2006 8:45:16 GMT -5
Nobody says that you need a sabot in the 45, but then you will most likely need to do some bullet sizing  Going lightweight and your rate of twist will prevent truly high BC bullets. Even my 1:14 is limited to the .44 BC SST in 30 cal or the .52 BC SMK in 8mm The Savage 1:24 will stabilize the 35 cal 200 grain spitzer with a BC of .32 but that is about the max you are likely to get. edge. |
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Post by redpep on Jul 15, 2006 9:58:46 GMT -5
MM-
Did you check your vent liner size at the begining fo this test?
Is it a hardened rw or standard liner.
Is it increasing in erosion while you are using the fouled plug through the course of this multiple shots or has it stabilized at one size?
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Post by dave d. on Jul 15, 2006 10:28:27 GMT -5
:)mm,how far are you looking to shoot?a 195 barnes x bullet sighted in at 2" high at 100 is around 16" low at 300rds and recoil is very mild at 2650.i shot the other day at 300yrds two groups one was a 3 shot 2 1/16"(will try later to post pics)the other was 6" 5 shot group and i pulled one and the other i think i know what happened but there were 3 out of that five that were 2 1/4".this was with the sst but both of these bullets group similiar.this was in 80 degree temps with inconsistent times between shots.
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 11:44:01 GMT -5
:)mm,how far are you looking to shoot?a 195 barnes x bullet sighted in at 2" high at 100 is around 16" low at 300rds ... Hmmm... I ran the numbers, and trajectory is almost identical. Supposedly 15.3 with yours versus 15.7 with mine. Windage does just barely favor the 300 SST a little bit, at 16" versus 19.5"--but at 300 yards, that's probably not enough to worry about too much. Still, I would love to see a .400 200 and/or 250 TMZ. If Barnes did that, I think I would have my gun in a UPS crate by the end of the day. |
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 11:44:42 GMT -5
P.S. That's some awesome shooting, dave!
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 11:54:28 GMT -5
redpep, I'm using hardened RW vents, although when I use them up, I'll probably go back to standard Savage vents and just put in a new one ever range trip.
I don't think that erosion is significant enough to be causing my groups to wander trip-to-trip. I got at least 150 shots out of the last RW vent and even then it wasn't as eroded as a Savage vent after 50 shots is.
Furthermore, most of the shots on the first RW vent were with clean breech plug(s). I think there will be less erosion using a fouled plug, since there is less volume inside the plug for barrel gases to fill. That means less gas will flow through the vent hole to fill the breech plug cavity, and less flow means less erosion. That's my theory, at least. We'll see how it pans out.
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Post by dave d. on Jul 15, 2006 12:20:25 GMT -5
P.S. That's some awesome shooting, dave! :)thank's mm.goodluck in your persuit of the ultimate muzzleloading combination.i haven't shot enough of the pr bullets to give any true evaluation but the dc bullets do have some pretty good bc's.i might try the 220's someday.imo there is only one guy on this board ;D that has the ultimate combination but it's just not feasible for most of us. |
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 14:41:22 GMT -5
Yeah, I know! If I could machine my own rifled sabots or buy them from somebody, well, then... ;D
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Post by RBinAR on Jul 15, 2006 19:39:13 GMT -5
SNIP The SST doesn't have great BC, and it appears to cause greater surface damage and explosive impacts than the .452 250 SST does.
What I would love to see is Barnes make a 200 and 250 grain .400 TMZ. Then we could shoot a 250 grain bullet with the BC of the 300 grain SST, and with lower powder charges. Or, shoot the 200 grain and know you'll get good penetration and less excess destruction.
I wonder if Hawk Bullets could construct a custom bullet for the purpose? I would disagree about the 200 grain SSTs BC it easily out does the 250 grain SST and a 200 grain TMZ would not beat it enough to make a difference. To each his own on the wound channel idea. Hawk makes a 235 grain 40 caliber bullet that is very good for those who want a heavier bullet for the .45. I stay away from the heavier bullets for 45 use because reduced recoil was one of the purposes behind going there in the first place. I can shoot the 200 grain bullet at 2750fps all day long from the 45 and not get "shoulder scab". |
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 15, 2006 21:20:46 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 15, 2006 22:17:59 GMT -5
As we shoot faster and faster with these guns, one thing stands out to me: Inside 300 yds there aren't many significant trajectory gains fron a 200 SST, 250 SST or 250 TMZ when launched at the same speed of 2,700 fps.....which it obtainable and even the norm for some. With B.C.'s of over .20 and under .22 there just isn't a big difference.
However, there are significant differences in terminal performance and, in the case of the 200 gr slug, felt recoil differences.
In order to really see trajectory differences we need to shoot Edge's bullets at the same, or higher, velocities with B.C.'s in the high.40's and low .50's. Now we would have true "rifle" like trajectories at 250+ yds. I assume that this is a long way off for the majority of shooters.
With a current load that is no higher then 3 inches or lower then 5 inches out to 250 yds, can be trusted at any angle from 0 to 250+ yds and shows excellent accuracy, I'm not sure what else I require.
(250 TMZ/ 245 Spitfire with enough H4198 to reach or slightly exceed 2,700 fps.)
This is excellent performance that kills woodchucks and deer that I hunt. If I decided to ever kill anything else (elk, black bear, hogs, moose) I believe the same could still be said. I consider this all-round performance nice to have.
For the one-gun-man, a .50 cal smokeless will do everything.....except gently massage your shoulder!
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Post by whyohe on Jul 16, 2006 19:18:18 GMT -5
MM i really appriciate what your doing in your testing but i have one question/suggestion.with the new vent in and a dirty plug compared to a clean plug worn vent i think these would effect the groups too in different ways wont it?if you have a spare plug can you put new vent in a clean plug and do tests that way by switching the 2 plugs but using the same powder and charge to see the different effect of a clean vs. dirty plug?
i think it was edge or rb that pointed out that the carbon build up MAY absorb some of the flame/heat and effect the grouping and ignition qualities.
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 17, 2006 7:37:35 GMT -5
I think it does effect groups--but not that you can't develop a load that is as accurate, but that it will be at a different charge weight than with a clean plug. Same principle as a one-hole versus a three-hole vent.
While the carbon may/likely does absorb some of the flame, I still think that more flame/pressure reaches the powder with a carboned plug than when using a clean plug.
Consider this: the volume of space not occupied by steel is the same, yet there is a significant amount of carbon (matter) in that space. While it may be somewhat porous, there is still (carbon) matter there that displaces some greater or lesser amount of gases. Those displaced gases have to go somewhere, and I believe that is through the vent and into the powder charge. And that is assuming that the carbon does absorb some of the flame/pressure.
Furthermore, the question arises of how quickly the gases can percolate and saturate the solid mass of carbon. Does that percolation/penetration/saturation rate exceed the rate of flow from the primer to the powder charge? Does it even exceed the overrall rate of pressure climb within the chamber as the powder begins burning? I don't know. If it does, though, that only further adds to the displacement and corresponding increased pressure and volume of the flame.
It appears that I have to use a one or two grain LIGHTER charge of H322 when employing a carboned plug than a clean one. I think this is because it starts with slightly more pressure/flame.
The benefit is that, I think, there will be less variation shot-to-shot and between the first shot of any given range session and the last shot there is when I clean the plug after every trip to the range. Time will tell whether or not it remains consistent.
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Post by edge on Jul 17, 2006 8:06:43 GMT -5
SNIP The benefit is that, I think, there will be less variation shot-to-shot and between the first shot of any given range session and the last shot there is when I clean the plug after every trip to the range. Time will tell whether or not it remains consistent. IMO, a crudded breechplug can be more consistent than a clean one, and IMO the vent liner does not wear as fast. As a matter of fact when I went for very long times without cleaning the vent bushing design that I was using became clogged to the point that velocity dropped markedly. When I went to measure the hole size it was less than 0.020 but I don't remember the exact size( it is posted here somewhere). I also am only cleaning the nipple area for ease of primer insertion and bolt closing without damage to the primer. edge. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jul 17, 2006 20:50:23 GMT -5
This is an interesting topic.
Is anyone using a "homemade" breechplug that mimicks a crudded up factory one? If so, is there no build up at all ....and does it simply not happen due to there not being any space for it to occur?
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Post by edge on Jul 17, 2006 21:14:32 GMT -5
I sent a breechplug to SW that had a Teflon tube that completely filled the space between the vent and the primer with a 3/32 diameter hole. I am not sure if he has used this one and if the Teflon is still intact ( I sent two and I don't remember the configurations  ). If you look at the sketches in the tips section, the vent tube design had many hundreds of shots on it and most were completely crudded. edge. |
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Post by MountainMan on Jul 17, 2006 21:25:17 GMT -5
This is an interesting topic. Is anyone using a "homemade" breechplug that mimicks a crudded up factory one? If so, is there no build up at all ....and does it simply not happen due to there not being any space for it to occur? I had imagined that RB's stainless steel plug was of that sort of a design. Is it not? |
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