Post by Rifleman on Sept 26, 2008 4:35:26 GMT -5
300 grain Barnes .458 Original Semi Spitzer Data
First of all I want to say thank you to everyone on Doug’s Muzzle loader message board who through their various postings have contributed the data compiled for this article. Without your hard work and generous spirit it would have been impossible to compile this information.
Dwight Scifres aka “Rifleman”
Diameter .458
Weight 300 grains
Description Semi Spitzer
Jacket thickness .032
Sectional Density .204
Ballistic Coefficient .291
Barnes product number 457010
This bullet is made by pressure forming pure copper tubing around a pure lead core. Typically the bullet will expand to more the 200 percent of original diameter, retains 70-90 percent of its original weight, and results in complete penetration of deer sized game when shot at ranges out to 300 yds when used at muzzle velocities in the 2300 fps range.
www.barnesbullets.com
Powders
*Disclaimer and Warning- None of this data is recommended by Savage for use in the Savage 10MLII. This data was gathered from multiple individual shooters with no controls over standards. A variety of 209 primers were used and this will have an effect on velocity and pressure. This information is presented for educational use only. Speeds and pressures will vary from rifle to rifle. Individuals who use this data proceed at their own risk and assume all liability for its use.
* Some data was recorded with the MMP sabot, and some was recorded with the Harvester sabot. Velocities with the Harvestor sabot tend to run a little faster then with the MMP. Velocities will vary from rifle to rifle.
AA 5744
45 grs- 2080 fps
4759
44 grs- 2042 fps
VV N120
55 grs- 2190 fps
60 grs-2290 fps
62 grs- 2350 fps
H4198
63 grs- 2260 fps
67 grs- 2400 fps
IMR4198
65 grs- 2330 fps
H332
75 grs- 2300 fps
Reloader 7
63 grs- 2234 fps
65 grs- 2392 fps
10x
72 grs- 2306 fps
75 grs – 2435 fps
Sabots
Typically the only two sabots used with the Barnes original are the MMP orange 50/45 sabot and the Harvester black crush rib 50/45 sabot. Depending on the individual bore, some rifles seem to show a marked preference for one or the other from an accuracy standpoint. Some claim that the Harvestor loads more consistently and they experience fewer flyers then with the MMP. Rick Clough recently reported that he recorded an increase of 150 fps average with the Harvestor sabot with a load of 60 grs N120. While doing the research for this article, I noticed the velocities reported with the Harvestor sabot were higher then with the MMP However some claim their rifles show a preference for the MMP. You just have to try both and see what shoots best in your rifle.
Petal thickness of the MMP is .024 and with a Barnes Original has an overall OD of .506
Petal thickness of the Harvestor is .0255 and with a Barnes Original has an overall OD of .509
www.mmpsabots.com
www.harvesterbullets.com
Recoil Data
A Savage 10MLII in stainless and with the laminated stock is listed with a weight of 8.75 lbs on the Savage website. A typical scope with rings and bases will weigh aprox 1.5 lbs for a total weapon weight of 10.25 lbs.
Using a base line of a 300 gr bullet and a charge of 60 grains and estimating 12 grs for a sabot, we end up with a total ejecta weight of 372 grains.
Free recoil is calculated with these parameters to be 29.57 foot lbs
Compare this to a 30-06 with a 150 gr bullet, 54 gr charge, at a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps, in a 9lb rifle: 14.92 foot lbs
Or a 300 win mag with a 180 gr bullet, 72 gr charge, in a 9 lb rifle traveling at 2960 fps:
23.72 foot lbs
Shooting with this recoil
What I have found is that shooting the 300 gr bullets at speed makes shooting these rifles well off the bench a little more difficult. Time in the barrel is long and recoil is hgh relatively speaking. I do prefer on most rifles to shoot off the bench with not holding the forearm. However with heavier loads like that in question, or with shotguns/slugs I find that POI will differ a great deal from the bench to shooting in the field while holding the forearm. So that is no good. For example, lets take my favorite load, a 300 gr BO scooting out the barrel at 2300 fos, if I sight this rifle in at 100 yds with no hold on the forearm, it will shoot a decent group. But when I get off the bench and shoot from position, holding the forearm, it will now be shooting low, due to the fact the rise of the barrel is slowed. This can amount to a difference of 7-9 inches at 100 yds. Edge is right when he notes that holding the forearm can cause your wobble area to increase on the bench an inch or more. It is a difficult thing to get around. However even with that difficulty I find the rifle shoots these loads into tighter groups with a firm forearm hold off the bench, as well as keeping the same POI when I move off the bench. It really becomes a matter of finding out how to hold this rifle still while holding onto the forearm. No doubt it takes some practice.
Ballistics
• From my personal observation the drop tables generated by computer models seem to underestimate the drop once you get past 200 yds. They also seem to overestimate the wind drift, and I have found actual wind drift to be about 60 percent of what the computer programs call for. With a muzzle velocity of 2280 fps average and a 200 yard zero, I recorded the following actual drops:
• 100 yds + 3.5 inches
• 200 yds 0
• 300 yds – 18 inches
I have also found that past 300 yards accuracy becomes somewhat sketchy and is the limiting factor on how far one can ethically attempt to kill game. The energy is certainly adequate at 400 yds but if you cannot reliably place your bullet it is a mute point and should not be attempted. I recommend you use the following drop tables for comparison only, and that you shoot your rifle and load combination at the actual ranges you intend to hunt to get your own data and find out where your accuracy falls off to unacceptable levels so that you can determine your own maximum effective range.
One thing I left out, accuracy and the temperature connection. This bullet seems to shoot on average about 1- 1.5 inch at 100 yds in the several rifles I have tested it in. At 200 yds it stays around 2 -2.5 inches, and at 300 yds it shoots 2 moa. Now here is the tricky part. I personally believe that no matter what powder or sabot you use, the sabot is being asked to perform under a heavy stress bearing load. Quite often I have messed with guns when it was warm, 60-70 degree temps ( while of course observing generous barrel cooling times) and just struggled to get it to shoot well. However unless there was a gun/scope problem, I have found this load really comes into it's own realm when it cools off. I really like to shoot this when it is under 50 degrees outside, and 40 is even better. Then wait times become less critical and that "fussy" rifle settles down and begins to hammer. Will this load shoot well when it is warm outside? Of course it will, see the picture of the 300 yard target. Notice it was shot at 70 degrees, but things do get much easier the cooler it gets.
Ballistic tables- For comparison of changes in velocity only
Ballistic coefficient used- .291
Sight height- 1.5 inch
Intervals- 25 yards
Max range- 500 yds
Muzzle elevation-0
Temperature- 50 degrees F
Altitude- 400 ft above sea level
Crosswind -10mph
Wind direction- 90 degrees
Links to online ballistics calculators:
www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
www.handloads.com/calc
www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm
First of all I want to say thank you to everyone on Doug’s Muzzle loader message board who through their various postings have contributed the data compiled for this article. Without your hard work and generous spirit it would have been impossible to compile this information.
Dwight Scifres aka “Rifleman”
Diameter .458
Weight 300 grains
Description Semi Spitzer
Jacket thickness .032
Sectional Density .204
Ballistic Coefficient .291
Barnes product number 457010
This bullet is made by pressure forming pure copper tubing around a pure lead core. Typically the bullet will expand to more the 200 percent of original diameter, retains 70-90 percent of its original weight, and results in complete penetration of deer sized game when shot at ranges out to 300 yds when used at muzzle velocities in the 2300 fps range.
www.barnesbullets.com
Powders
*Disclaimer and Warning- None of this data is recommended by Savage for use in the Savage 10MLII. This data was gathered from multiple individual shooters with no controls over standards. A variety of 209 primers were used and this will have an effect on velocity and pressure. This information is presented for educational use only. Speeds and pressures will vary from rifle to rifle. Individuals who use this data proceed at their own risk and assume all liability for its use.
* Some data was recorded with the MMP sabot, and some was recorded with the Harvester sabot. Velocities with the Harvestor sabot tend to run a little faster then with the MMP. Velocities will vary from rifle to rifle.
AA 5744
45 grs- 2080 fps
4759
44 grs- 2042 fps
VV N120
55 grs- 2190 fps
60 grs-2290 fps
62 grs- 2350 fps
H4198
63 grs- 2260 fps
67 grs- 2400 fps
IMR4198
65 grs- 2330 fps
H332
75 grs- 2300 fps
Reloader 7
63 grs- 2234 fps
65 grs- 2392 fps
10x
72 grs- 2306 fps
75 grs – 2435 fps
Sabots
Typically the only two sabots used with the Barnes original are the MMP orange 50/45 sabot and the Harvester black crush rib 50/45 sabot. Depending on the individual bore, some rifles seem to show a marked preference for one or the other from an accuracy standpoint. Some claim that the Harvestor loads more consistently and they experience fewer flyers then with the MMP. Rick Clough recently reported that he recorded an increase of 150 fps average with the Harvestor sabot with a load of 60 grs N120. While doing the research for this article, I noticed the velocities reported with the Harvestor sabot were higher then with the MMP However some claim their rifles show a preference for the MMP. You just have to try both and see what shoots best in your rifle.
Petal thickness of the MMP is .024 and with a Barnes Original has an overall OD of .506
Petal thickness of the Harvestor is .0255 and with a Barnes Original has an overall OD of .509
www.mmpsabots.com
www.harvesterbullets.com
Recoil Data
A Savage 10MLII in stainless and with the laminated stock is listed with a weight of 8.75 lbs on the Savage website. A typical scope with rings and bases will weigh aprox 1.5 lbs for a total weapon weight of 10.25 lbs.
Using a base line of a 300 gr bullet and a charge of 60 grains and estimating 12 grs for a sabot, we end up with a total ejecta weight of 372 grains.
Free recoil is calculated with these parameters to be 29.57 foot lbs
Compare this to a 30-06 with a 150 gr bullet, 54 gr charge, at a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps, in a 9lb rifle: 14.92 foot lbs
Or a 300 win mag with a 180 gr bullet, 72 gr charge, in a 9 lb rifle traveling at 2960 fps:
23.72 foot lbs
Shooting with this recoil
What I have found is that shooting the 300 gr bullets at speed makes shooting these rifles well off the bench a little more difficult. Time in the barrel is long and recoil is hgh relatively speaking. I do prefer on most rifles to shoot off the bench with not holding the forearm. However with heavier loads like that in question, or with shotguns/slugs I find that POI will differ a great deal from the bench to shooting in the field while holding the forearm. So that is no good. For example, lets take my favorite load, a 300 gr BO scooting out the barrel at 2300 fos, if I sight this rifle in at 100 yds with no hold on the forearm, it will shoot a decent group. But when I get off the bench and shoot from position, holding the forearm, it will now be shooting low, due to the fact the rise of the barrel is slowed. This can amount to a difference of 7-9 inches at 100 yds. Edge is right when he notes that holding the forearm can cause your wobble area to increase on the bench an inch or more. It is a difficult thing to get around. However even with that difficulty I find the rifle shoots these loads into tighter groups with a firm forearm hold off the bench, as well as keeping the same POI when I move off the bench. It really becomes a matter of finding out how to hold this rifle still while holding onto the forearm. No doubt it takes some practice.
Ballistics
• From my personal observation the drop tables generated by computer models seem to underestimate the drop once you get past 200 yds. They also seem to overestimate the wind drift, and I have found actual wind drift to be about 60 percent of what the computer programs call for. With a muzzle velocity of 2280 fps average and a 200 yard zero, I recorded the following actual drops:
• 100 yds + 3.5 inches
• 200 yds 0
• 300 yds – 18 inches
I have also found that past 300 yards accuracy becomes somewhat sketchy and is the limiting factor on how far one can ethically attempt to kill game. The energy is certainly adequate at 400 yds but if you cannot reliably place your bullet it is a mute point and should not be attempted. I recommend you use the following drop tables for comparison only, and that you shoot your rifle and load combination at the actual ranges you intend to hunt to get your own data and find out where your accuracy falls off to unacceptable levels so that you can determine your own maximum effective range.
One thing I left out, accuracy and the temperature connection. This bullet seems to shoot on average about 1- 1.5 inch at 100 yds in the several rifles I have tested it in. At 200 yds it stays around 2 -2.5 inches, and at 300 yds it shoots 2 moa. Now here is the tricky part. I personally believe that no matter what powder or sabot you use, the sabot is being asked to perform under a heavy stress bearing load. Quite often I have messed with guns when it was warm, 60-70 degree temps ( while of course observing generous barrel cooling times) and just struggled to get it to shoot well. However unless there was a gun/scope problem, I have found this load really comes into it's own realm when it cools off. I really like to shoot this when it is under 50 degrees outside, and 40 is even better. Then wait times become less critical and that "fussy" rifle settles down and begins to hammer. Will this load shoot well when it is warm outside? Of course it will, see the picture of the 300 yard target. Notice it was shot at 70 degrees, but things do get much easier the cooler it gets.
Ballistic tables- For comparison of changes in velocity only
Ballistic coefficient used- .291
Sight height- 1.5 inch
Intervals- 25 yards
Max range- 500 yds
Muzzle elevation-0
Temperature- 50 degrees F
Altitude- 400 ft above sea level
Crosswind -10mph
Wind direction- 90 degrees
Links to online ballistics calculators:
www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx
www.handloads.com/calc
www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm