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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2006 10:14:56 GMT -5
I started my newest project, which will be a 45 Muzzleloader on a 110 Long Savage action. A year ago I bought a A&B 45 barrel in a 99 contour to practice the breech while I waited for my Krieger barrel to arrive. I contoured it to the same dimensions as the Krieger, cut the breech and crown. Since the Krieger took so long to be delivered I took some time playing with this barrel at the range. At the time I was mainly shooting 150 grain 0.308 bullets and it was reasonably accurate, but I stopped using it when my new barrel arrived. I had always liked the feel of the original ML-I with locking lugs and easy bolt removal and had designed a breechplug around this. Since I already had a barrel with the breech completed I made some minor changes to my design and bought a Savage Package gun in a 30-06 I decided to document the project and here are the beginning photos: Package Gun minus scope. Rifle w/new barrel for comparison. Minus Stock. With New Barrel installed. Since there has been some interest in sabotless loads I decided that this is where I will start once I get the primed cases ready. There is absolutely no way to push a 0.452 down the barrel of a 0.458 rile barrel without some modifications. What I am doing now is to put a 0.452 bullet into a collet and slightly crush it, for lack of a better term, until it makes for a very snug fit in the bore. I hope that by next week I will have some results to report on. edge.
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Post by clintsfolly on Feb 17, 2006 10:30:08 GMT -5
I will start once I get the primed cases ready. ?? please let use in on your new breech plug. thanks clint
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Post by bubba on Feb 17, 2006 10:56:05 GMT -5
hey edge, how about 451 bullets? would they work? or do you need even smaller?
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2006 11:06:00 GMT -5
clintsfolly,
I am just using a LR primer in a cut down case instead of a 209 primer. Since the rifle already uses a case I saw no reason to re-invent things. Since there are locking lugs the powder is much closer to the primer and I hope to get good ignition, but I can modify the case to accept a 209 if I get misfires.
bubba,
Right now I am taking a 250 grain XTP and sizing it to 0.450 except for 0.015 above the cannelure. This I can easily engrave down the bore and it seems to give a reasonable resistance. I will still be using a greased card between the powder and the bullet......old habits die hard ;D
edge.
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Post by getonit on Feb 17, 2006 12:39:53 GMT -5
Edge -looking forward to hearing more on this- sounds great. have you thought of trying a concave or even hollow base for the bullets? (sort of like the old "minie" lead bullets? ) I would think with the added pressure some extra gas seal would be beneficial with a sabotless load... just an idea..... Rick
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2006 13:57:33 GMT -5
getonit,
I must admit that I have not thought about that.
I was dubious of sabotless until I recovered a bullet that I had shot inside of a sabot. The base had grown almost 0.100 in diameter where it had not been completely supported!
I am now convinced that the bullet will completely seal the bore and will mirror the lands and grooves.
While a 45 from a 45 is not really my cup of tea, I am interested on getting an accuracy baseline for this rifle. If it is not as accurate as I hope then I will try some of my new style sabots and if that is still no good then the 30-06 barrel will go back on.
edge.
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Post by dave d. on Feb 17, 2006 16:18:41 GMT -5
:)mark,i thought my gun would have been finished before yours but know i can learn from you.when you get your plug all figured out could you send me a sketch with all the numbers?when savage destroyed my ml1 and sent me a ml2 i knew it was only a matter of time till i built my centerfire bolt muzzleloader.pac-nor should have my barrel here next week so i'm starting to get excited.goodluck with your new project.
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Post by Blue-Dot-37.5 on Feb 17, 2006 16:31:28 GMT -5
Edge:
"There is absolutely no way to push a 0.452 down the barrel of a 0.458 rile barrel without some modifications."
Huh? Now a .458 down a .452 would cause some interference, but not the other way around, or am I missing something???
Blue-Dot-37.5
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2006 17:30:22 GMT -5
A .458 caliber rifle barrel is the "Bore" diameter, not the land diameter, which is 0.450 on my barrel and I think that that is pretty much standard with rifles. Bullets are generally decsribed by the full bore diameter which fit the bore, but the lands are generally 0.008 - 0.010 smaller. edge. Edge: "There is absolutely no way to push a 0.452 down the barrel of a 0.458 rile barrel without some modifications." Huh? Now a .458 down a .452 would cause some interference, but not the other way around, or am I missing something??? Blue-Dot-37.5
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Post by ricciprice on Feb 17, 2006 19:08:24 GMT -5
Edge, I have a A&B barrel also, I used it to build my 45 on a H&R receiver, strange thing is that on the barrel it is stamped ".456/1-22" but my bore size is .452 and groove is .458. When I got it the first thing I tried to do was shove a .452 bullet down it, it was tight but not as tight as sabot and bullet combo. I have shot it with .452 bullets but only 4 times, one thing I did notice was that the amount of powder residue left behind is next to nothing, it shot about a 4-5" group @ 50yrds, where as a saboted bad load shoots 1" @ 50yrds, maybe some more trial will be needed.
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Post by edge on Feb 17, 2006 19:34:34 GMT -5
ricciprice,
Very interesting on that bore diamater. Mine is a 1:14 for a 458 win mag.
I shot some pretty good groups in my Savage before I swapped out this barrel for my 505 bore.
edge.
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Post by IndianaHunter on Feb 17, 2006 22:49:19 GMT -5
Edge, do you have a 50/358 sabot?
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Post by jjw on Feb 17, 2006 23:58:07 GMT -5
Edge you are the man! You always have a ML-related project that you are working on! keep us informed, as I enjoy reading what you have to pass on.
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Post by edge on Feb 18, 2006 8:31:45 GMT -5
Edge, do you have a 50/358 sabot? I have used several versions: This was my first successful try, and that is a 180 grain 35 call bullet. The top left version was what I used to harvest a buck 2 seasons ago. This goes inside of a standard 45/50 sabot. The other two were not as accurate. This was my first rifled sabot for the 35 caliber 200 grain bullet. Since my 1:20 twist would stabilize the 8mm bullet, and the B.C. was much higher I opted to go 8mm ;D The Savage 1:24 will do a good job with a 200 grain flat based bullet in 35 caliber. as long as the base is supported properly. edge. PS As an afterthought, I am now convinced that some of my early attempts proved to be less than great performers due to insufficient base support! If I had the ability to recover a bullet that was not deformed by impact, I think that many of my previous sabots could have been perfected much sooner.
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Post by edge on Feb 22, 2006 9:14:17 GMT -5
Quick update. Since this is our busy time of year, my machine time is very limited. I don't have the time to make a completely new breechplug for this project, but there is this rifle crying out to be shot I decided that if I cut a 209 primer pocket in the base of a 30-06 case that I could shoot using my regular breechplug. The primer only goes into about 0.075 of the breechplug snout so there is some blowby, but not too much. I did shoot it a few times to get on paper, and to see what loads I wanted to try. I only shot 65 grains of N120 and modified 250 grain XTP's. ( this is a listed starting load for 350 grain bullet in a 458 win mag ) Recoil was mild as expected, and will experiment with 4198 on my next trip. I have some more stock work as I have some serious barrel contact, and hope to shoot a group the next time out and should be able to post the results by then. edge.
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Post by savagebrother on Feb 22, 2006 11:23:00 GMT -5
edge, i was thinking of doing my ruger no.1 i picked up in .408 cal. and shooting .40 200 grain sst's sabotless. i think the .408 bore is what the .405 winchester is bored to?? what are your thoughts here? sb
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Post by edge on Feb 22, 2006 11:43:04 GMT -5
If .40 is legal where you hunt, then I see no reason that it would not work. I am not really the best person to ask on this, as I am just flying by the seat of my pants ( and barely holding on ) I know that there are others out there with a lot of experience doing this, and perhaps some details will come forward. I think the Bad Bull uses sabotless, The Ball's shoot sabotless, and I bet that somewhere there is someone that has written about this but I have not found it in my searches. I have said this before, and I am convinced that shooting sabotless requires more attention to detail than using sabots since there is nothing to give way in the case of an overload of pressure. Savage warns against using bore size bullets and smokeless powder! edge. edge, i was thinking of doing my ruger no.1 i picked up in .408 cal. and shooting .40 200 grain sst's sabotless. i think the .408 bore is what the .405 winchester is bored to?? what are your thoughts here? sb
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Post by savagebrother on Feb 22, 2006 12:06:32 GMT -5
yes, .38 cal. is legal in ohio, and yes i think you have to work up loads very carefully with a sabotless muzzleloader. as far as bore size bullets in the savage, i never had any problems shooting 500 grain lead slugs out of it. big load of slower powder, i think they are making the statement because they dont know and have never tested bore size projectiles. i look at it this way. if you can safely shoot an over bore projectile that is gripped by a brass tube into a barrel and squeeze it thru safely then i would think that we could shoot a close to bore size bullet down a muzzleloader barrel faely safely. my thoughts are the powder weight to pressure thresshold will be higher in a sabotless load. meaning that if you do get the bullet to obturate into the grooves you better keep it moving. meaning if it were to slow down you might bulge or rupture a barrel. where the sabot acts like a lube you wont get that with a bore size projectile. sb
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Post by edge on Feb 24, 2006 19:41:43 GMT -5
Brief update. I had a few people take Friday off which meant open machine time. Naturally other projects always show up when I have free machine time so I did not get everything done that I had hoped for, but I did make some progress. Where I stand now: 45 barrel installed, stock is about 90% finished ( still some interference ). Bushnell 3200 installed and bore sighted but not shot yet. Also I modified my breechplug for an 11/32 wrench. The following three pictures are the breechplug and 30-06 cut cartridge for priming. Not fully headspaced or heat treated yet. I also think that I will need to remove the ejector pin from the bolt face, but that remains to be seen. Still to be made is the magazine baffle and revised feed ramp. I expect to use a 45 acp as my primer and I will need to headspace for that when I pick some up and measure. edge.
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Post by dave d. on Feb 24, 2006 22:39:36 GMT -5
:)edge look's good.can't wait till you try it.boy we are sure going to have some awsome muzzleloaders and no walking stick's ;D.goodluck
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KS
Six pointer
Posts: 93
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Post by KS on Feb 25, 2006 10:43:55 GMT -5
Not that I'm saying it's bad, but its not how I had envisioned this part. I thought that when a brass case was used that the breech plug was bored straight through for that size case. And that part of the charge would actually be in the case. Glad you used pictures, helps alot. ks
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Post by edge on Feb 25, 2006 10:48:23 GMT -5
I went to the range last night to try some more sabotless 250 XTP bullets. I used XX grains of 4198 and got fair results. After finding the target here are the next 4 shots: No chronograph so I am not sure of the velocity, but expect 2600+ I'll size some SST's next week and see how they shoot. edge.
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Post by getonit on Feb 25, 2006 11:57:23 GMT -5
Edge - now if you can just find the way of cycling that primed brass into position with the bolt like a normal center fire ;D ;D- --not bad results for the beginning! Rick
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Post by edge on Feb 25, 2006 12:30:10 GMT -5
KS, If I did that then it would just be a regular center fire rifle! IMO, you would not want to load a primed case , then pour the powder down the barrel and then push the bullet down the bore! Not too safe AND not within the meaning of a muzzleloader getonit, That is one of the next steps. I will be adding a baffle to the magazine and also adding a more gradual ramp for loading the primed case from the mag. I think that the 45 case will be too short for proper ejection with the ejector in place, but that is an easy fix. edge.
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KS
Six pointer
Posts: 93
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Post by KS on Feb 25, 2006 21:02:43 GMT -5
Edge, now that I think about it, your right that wouldn't be to safe. But as for the meaning of a muzzleloader, well. Lets just say that I'm not in this game to be nostolgic. ks
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Post by grouse on Feb 25, 2006 21:18:53 GMT -5
Looks like a shooter
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Post by edge on Mar 4, 2006 22:19:01 GMT -5
I finished the new breechplug and tested Large Rifle primers but got inconsistent ignition. The length to the powder is still on the long side ( 1.200 ) so they may or may not work when I add a vent bushing which will cut this distance in half I tested N120 this time instead of the H4198. I still have not corrected the barrel/stock interference so I am not too disappointed with the vertical stringing. I also changed the way that I sized the XTP bullets. The base is 0.450+ and I only size up to the Cannelure, so it takes a pretty good shove to push the bullet down the bore. I have not chronographed this load so I do not know the pressure. Only the 1st shot on this target was with the Large Rifle Primer, the rest were with Win and Federal 209 primers. edge.
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Post by getonit on Mar 4, 2006 22:23:24 GMT -5
Lookin' good! Rick
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Post by E.T. on Mar 4, 2006 22:43:15 GMT -5
Edge
Delightfully sweet to see a group like that appear. Nicely done.
Ed
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Post by dave d. on Mar 5, 2006 21:06:03 GMT -5
:)edge,nice shooting there that's a bummer to hear about the lr.
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