rkb
Spike
rkb
Posts: 23
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Post by rkb on Oct 28, 2006 21:09:21 GMT -5
I'm going to be using 4759 as a booster and 322 for my primary powder . I know when using 110 as a booster, a popular load is 14/61 . Has anyone used 4759 as a booster and if so how much do you use ? thanks guys.
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 28, 2006 21:27:35 GMT -5
I'm going to be using 4759 as a booster and 322 for my primary powder . I know when using 110 as a booster, a popular load is 14/61 . Has anyone used 4759 as a booster and if so how much do you use ? thanks guys. Imr-SR4759 will work as an exact replacement to N110, you don't have to change a thing. I have not said much of duplex for some time. However next year I will reveiw duplex as a whole. For one thing I think most people could be better served with a 65 grain duplex rather than the common 75 grain load. On the other hand I think loads could use some revamping because I feel generally the pressures are anemic. Working duplex to optimum pressure was difficult in times past because some wanted me branded as a witch doctor as it was. To admit at that time I actually thought the pressure needs to be higher was inflamatory. |
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Post by DW on Oct 28, 2006 22:10:32 GMT -5
Alright your killing me ;D, surely your going to give us more.
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 31, 2006 14:51:44 GMT -5
Alright your killing me ;D, surely your going to give us more. You thought I was going to leave you hanging didn't you! Answer this question: According to what you know about yourself and the 10ML how fast do you want to shoot a 250 grain bullet? 1 less than 2400fps 2 2400 to 2425fps 3 2425 to 2500fps 4 2500 to 2575fps 5 2575 to 2625fps 6 2625 to 2675fps 7 faster than 2675fps OUCH Keep in mind I have the same standards for all these loads. They all are optimumized for pressure and shoot with bare sabots. They all shoot the minimum amount of powder and produce the minimum recoil for a safe load at these speed. When you answer I'll tell you how that relates to duplex. |
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Post by bubba on Oct 31, 2006 15:38:39 GMT -5
1 or 2 RB
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Post by edge on Oct 31, 2006 15:51:20 GMT -5
I'll answer for wilmsmeyer: "Where is 8,9 & 10 "  edge. |
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Post by MountainMan on Oct 31, 2006 17:39:25 GMT -5
I'll answer for wilmsmeyer: "Where is 8,9 & 10 " edge. LOL! ;D I would probably be looking at 7, myself, though. |
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Post by DW on Oct 31, 2006 17:41:44 GMT -5
I'll answer for wilmsmeyer: "Where is 8,9 & 10 " edge. ;D LOL Without a doubt. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Oct 31, 2006 18:15:27 GMT -5
Edge,
You pegged me. Also you did it while I had my back turned.... working outside all day wishing I was in my bowstand.
Shooting well with 250 class bullets in excess of 2,700 fps from a muzzleloader makes me shiver. I'm constantly shivering it seems yet I'm not cold. It's not impossible and it is done regularly with the only expense being recoil....and not danger.
Last weekend I shot a lot getting ready for our season. Earlier in the year, while experimenting with higher then 76 Gr of H4198 and 250 TMZs, I had stopped at 78.2 gr and 2785 fps. Accuracy was very good and I think I posted a few groups.
Well this weekend I did it again. It was nice to see that this load level still shot the same. I would say exactly as well as the load I normally shoot of 76 Gr. Once you reach a certain level of recoil...what's a little more?
So Edge, you are correct in your assumption: If I could gleen a tid-bit of info getting me "up-there" in velocity...accompanied by accuracy....with a duplex......show me the way.
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 31, 2006 19:38:53 GMT -5
Not a problem. You want to shoot 55 or 60 grains total charge and the load should be about 25/30 (Imr-4759 or N110 under H322) for 55 grains and and about 22/38 for a 60 grain load. Ooops I have to chage my answer because I wasn't paying attention. For number one shoot 42 to 44 grains of N110 or Imr-4759. For the second step see what I said above about the 55 grain load. |
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 31, 2006 20:00:06 GMT -5
I'll answer for wilmsmeyer: "Where is 8,9 & 10 " edge. You guys are gluttons for punishment aren't you? Since it's obvious that H-4198 will shoot to 2700+fps at a safe pressure you don't really need a duplex for super speed do you? Since 2750fps is as fast as you can shoot a 250 grain bullet from the 375 Holland I'm assuming all of you who mention 7 or above don't give a hoot in a hollow about recoil. Though I NEVER plan to shoot such a load I'll let those of you with no pain receptors know a secret about how fast you can shoot a 250 grain bullet from a 50 caliber and not go over 40,000psi pressure. ITS LIGHT SPEED! Let me state an example: look at the data for the 50-140 as found on the Hodgdon or Accurate Arms web sites. The most powerful loads approach 5800fpe at an anemic 28,000psi maximum pressure. But you do have to account for the rifles longer barrel. Now I don't know but I've been told the the maximum pressure a sabot will take is considerably more than 28,000psi. So let me ask all of you this: how fast does a 262 grain bullet have to go to reach 5800fpe?? |
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Post by minst7877 on Oct 31, 2006 20:01:47 GMT -5
What? Are you turning into a whimp Bubba ;D ;D DC What about # 4 RB |
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Post by edge on Oct 31, 2006 20:12:37 GMT -5
About 3150 fps |
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 31, 2006 20:25:43 GMT -5
#4 is 65 grains total charge and the load should be about 20/45 with a possibility of a few grains more or less of the booster something like 22/43. But with this load (and all of them for that matter there is room to adjust to a speed your rifle likes as long as the total charge is 65 grains. |
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Post by RBinAR on Oct 31, 2006 20:32:52 GMT -5
About 3150 fps We seem to know the answer there so the next question is how many of you have shot a rifle that kicks harder than a 378 Weatherby Magnum? |
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Post by SW on Oct 31, 2006 22:47:24 GMT -5
#4 is 65 grains total charge and the load should be about 20/45 with a possibility of a few grains more or less of the booster something like 22/43. But with this load (and all of them for that matter there is room to adjust to a speed your rifle likes as long as the total charge is 65 grains. The 14/61 duplex load is the favorite load of many of us. Likewise it has less pressure than 44g VV-110, a book load; but does have a 200+'/sec speed advantage. BUT, the duplex load is more temp sens. It isn't as sens as the previously used 10/60 VV duplex, but it still has some sens. I bet the 65g total load proposed loads will be much less temp sens and at a better, somewhat higher, pressure. I think the 3rd generation duplex loads( the 65g load being discussed) will be even better yet. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Nov 1, 2006 6:00:52 GMT -5
Just over 3100 fps. What will that take....about 110 gr H4198 and a barrel extention to burn it all.  |
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Post by RBinAR on Nov 1, 2006 11:42:14 GMT -5
Just over 3100 fps. What will that take....about 110 gr H4198 and a barrel extention to burn it all. You have the charge weight right but since the load you mentioned earlier is already at 40,000psi (or slightly more) I don't think sticking more of it in the barrel will make the sabot survival range. Since it's known that one can shoot to the mid-ninety grain level with H322 or Xmr-2015 (the shooter is merely paralyzed by the recoil not killed) then the next slowest powder N133 or Benchmark seems to be the ticket. However you CAN'T go there and you CAN'T shoot it. It's time to realize developing super loads should be left to subjects on a message board. Having done this for thirty years is still not enough for me to loose the hordes on load development. It takes more than a desire to shoot fast to develop a load no one has shot before. You can't pull the trigger just because someone told you (even if I told you) it will work. When someone else has a couple hundred or thousand shots first then you might try it. |
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Post by DannoBoone on Nov 1, 2006 19:19:36 GMT -5
"However you CAN'T go there and you CAN'T shoot it. It's time to realize developing super loads should be left to subjects on a message board. Having done this for thirty years is still not enough for me to loose the hordes on load development. It takes more than a desire to shoot fast to develop a load no one has shot before. You can't pull the trigger just because someone told you (even if I told you) it will work. When someone else has a couple hundred or thousand shots first then you might try it."
OK, fine. That's what I did, and people STILL call me NUTZ, including
today! I'm using the 14/61 250gr load--tried & proven by many, proven
to have less or equal pressure than recommended loads, but still
considered to be an "out-law" load by far too many!
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Post by 3CS1PY2 on Nov 1, 2006 20:47:24 GMT -5
RB can you give me the answer for #6? Thanks
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Post by RBinAR on Nov 1, 2006 21:31:14 GMT -5
OK, fine. That's what I did, and people STILL call me NUTZ, including today! I'm using the 14/61 250gr load--tried & proven by many, proven to have less or equal pressure than recommended loads, but still considered to be an "out-law" load by far too many! What can I say? Maybe "I feel your pain" might be a good reply. You don't necessarily get acceptance because it's a good idea. Take for instance when Joe LeGrande came here to comment on the frozen vent and worthless receiver screw issue. He made it a point that if you shot duplex it probably is going to cause instant stuck liners. Of course the facts can be hanged. The four rifles I was referring to were customer's rifles and none of them ever came close to a duplex and most of them never shot anything but a factory load, still there was a reason to attack duplex. Don't you think I wanted to say something to the effect: "how many millions of shots have to be fired safely and effectively for you to admit it works"? Still as I reflect there was (is) no need in that. Joe's business is selling rifles. My business is a hobby. Joe's business will do better if he fixes the vent and bad hardware issues. My business will do better... if I work less and shoot more. |
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Post by RBinAR on Nov 1, 2006 21:35:12 GMT -5
RB can you give me the answer for #6? Thanks 70 grains total load. Booster should be N110 or Imr-4759. Primary powder should be H322. Total booster should be between 18 and 22 grain Total primary should be between 48 and 52 grains or 18/52 to 22/48. |
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 2, 2006 16:30:47 GMT -5
I have stated before that I never thought that there is anything complicated about a duplex load. You carry a small vial and a larger one. Pour the small first then the larger. What is complicated about that?
However what I don't know about duplex is if varying the ratio even slightly will affect POI. 14/61 seems to be a common ratio of booster to slower buring powder. I am wondering if on my mechanical scale I am off a bit and instead of measuring out 14 grains it is actually 13.6 and as I empty this vial into my muzzle a couple of grains sticks to the vial. And instead of 61 grains of H322 let's say I looked sideways at the scale and it was really 61.5
Now that doesn't seem like much but with some mention of this particular load being temp sensitive I am wondering if it is also very ratio sensitive? This factor alone is the only thing that I can see that would complicate the use of duplex.......Doug
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Post by RBinAR on Nov 2, 2006 20:48:31 GMT -5
However what I don't know about duplex is if varying the ratio even slightly will affect POI. 14/61 seems to be a common ratio of booster to slower buring powder. I am wondering if on my mechanical scale I am off a bit and instead of measuring out 14 grains it is actually 13.6 and as I empty this vial into my muzzle a couple of grains sticks to the vial. And instead of 61 grains of H322 let's say I looked sideways at the scale and it was really 61.5 This is a very good question, you can tell when someone is doing his homework. My answer is any load error affects any particular shot. The whole idea of accuracy as we use the term is based on what an engineer would call uniformity. Uniformity is how close each process occurrence is to the others in a string of events. If you load one charge 69 grains and the next 71 grains there is a variance of uniformity of 2 grains. If you assume that all shots have to be different in some way from the others then the exact uniformity of shots is not the question. The question becomes: how much can we miss exact uniformity and things still work? Normally I think the standard of shooters is one grain. In other words if you are accurate enough to load the powder where it is within one grain on all occasions then this error will cause some inaccuracy but the error will be within a working limit so you won't have to worry the load will be effected beyond a reasonable amount. I think the same idea applies to duplex as to any powder. For instance I know a 1 grain difference in booster will change bullet speed by about 25fps. A one grain difference in primary only effect a small amount. So an error in booster powder has the greatest effect but 25fps is still within what would be a nominal error. |
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Post by DBinNY on Nov 2, 2006 21:38:23 GMT -5
I think RBs observation about error in the booster powder being more "sensitive" makes perfect sense. For example, if you were dealing with a hypothetical 20/50 duplex a 1 grain error in the booster powder would be a 5% error. At the same time, a 1 grain error in the main powder charge would only represent an error of only 2%. So being off by the same amount of weight with either powder represents a larger error in the booster powder. Also consider that the booster powder is "hotter" than the main powder and it's easy to understand why your results would be much more sensitive to errors in the booster than in the main charge.
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Post by dougedwards on Nov 2, 2006 22:04:45 GMT -5
If you assume that all shots have to be different in some way from the others then the exact uniformity of shots is not the question. The question becomes: how much can we miss exact uniformity and things still work? I think the same idea applies to duplex as to any powder. I believe that two is not much more complicated than one but in the case of duplex it does leave more margin for error. To exaggerate to make a case suppose that you had five elements instead of just one or two. And you were slightly off on all five measurements. A little bit X 5 might be enough to drastically change things. It seems that in the case of duplex having one more element to weigh and pour there is twice the chance of error enough to make a difference. I guess the remedy for that is to not make any mistakes in weighing the powder or pouring it but if some folks have had such a lapse in consciousness to shoot their ramrods I am sure that there are some of us (myself for one) who like to keep things as simple as possible when it comes to the hunting situation. If I shoot crummy groups at paper I don't lose sleep. But Lord let me keep it as simple as possible when Bullwinkle steps out..........Doug |
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Post by minst7877 on Nov 25, 2006 7:09:42 GMT -5
RB we have the numbers for everything but #3 and 5 what are those please.
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Post by tar12 on Nov 25, 2006 8:18:12 GMT -5
RB, The standard loading procedure for duplex loads is to pour the booster down,then the main charge.What happens if they are premixed before loading and used in this manner?I was wondering if this could be done and still enjoy increased velocities?Or is this a recipe for disaster?
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Post by Flatland Hunter on Nov 25, 2006 14:22:51 GMT -5
Why not use IMR4198 and a booster for 250 class bullets?
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Post by edge on Nov 25, 2006 16:03:59 GMT -5
Flatland Hunter, you could use 4198 in a duplex, but I think that 4198 is already the correct powder for the bullet and the velocity. Now I have heard that IMR 4198 is a little harder to ignite so perhaps it may be more valid with IMR vs H powder, but that is just a guess. If you check out the Hodgdon website for a 450 marlin the loads are listed for the 250 grain bullet. edge. www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/450marln.php#top |
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