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Post by edge on Dec 20, 2006 23:13:55 GMT -5
First I freely admit that as a bench shooter I stink! I tend to slap the trigger, and pull away when I think the trigger should have broken...but I can shoot deer  Here is my question: My rifle has a #7 taper and therefore I have extra high rings and a standard Tupperware stock. I often shoot two distinct groups on a target and I wonder if it could be how I look through the scope. 4 shots Tonight:  5 shots a while back:  All shots @ 100 yards. Is it reasonable that stock/cheek weld/ scope location could cause this type of pattern? edge. PS tonight's were with my new sabots for the Nosler Accubond 150 grain .308 bullets:  |
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Post by jims on Dec 20, 2006 23:22:34 GMT -5
Edge: Every time I see that excellent machine work it makes me envious. That CNC work provides alot of possibilities.
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Post by edge on Dec 20, 2006 23:30:57 GMT -5
Thanks, now if I could shoot a good group  edge. |
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Post by ozark on Dec 20, 2006 23:36:38 GMT -5
If the comb of the stock is low with respect to the center of the scope getting a good consistent cheek weld is near impossible. If everything is right when you plant your cheek naturally on the stock the eye should be level with the center of the scope. I like for my trigger hand thumb to rest snuggly between my nose and cheek. The thumb nail is more or less just under the eye. Yes, an inconsistent or improper cheek weld can account for larger groups but not necessarily two distinct good groups. I mount my own scopes forward or back to match my natural good cheek weld to the best eye relief. Meaning when I take my grip and place the cheek on the thumb and stock I am looking down the center of the scope. I hope somehow you get what i am not saying very well.
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Post by E.T. on Dec 21, 2006 1:32:31 GMT -5
First off I don’t consider myself an expert shooter but others consider me at least above average. One thing that has helped me for trying to determine cause of group movement is placing a sequential number to each shot as taken. The horizontal shifting of groups I also experienced with my Tupperware stock until I did a bedding job on it that also properly aligned the barrel to the stock’s central axis.
To have two separate but tight groups that you’ve displayed I don’t believe its shooter error.
Ed
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 21, 2006 3:12:40 GMT -5
Actually two distinct groups can be caused by shooter error. Typically this is seen during a rapid fire phase that incorporates a magazine change. The most often blamed culprit for this is an improper natural point of aim. But that is not the only culprit. When you break down what causes an improper natural point of aim the causes can be varied. To explain all this would require a fairly lenghty explanation. However a simple shooters trick to get a more consistent cheek weld is to mark the stock with a piece of tape to help you get back to the same place everytime, and then try to be consistent in the amount of pressure you apply to the stock with your cheek. It should be firm but not a strained effort. Check your natural point of aim between shots by getting good sight alignment/sight picture, close your eyes, take a breath and let it out to your natural point of respiratory pause. Open your eyes. If your rifle has wandered, then either your position is not stable or your NPOA is off. Correct the position until the rifle is still centered after you do the aforementioned check. This can be a lenghty process until you get used to it. After that it becomes much quicker and natural to accomplish.
However with your experimentation bullets/sabots still in progress, I would not automatically blame shooter error. One thing I would most highly recommend is that you mentioned having a problem with trigger control. Until trigger control is mastered, consistent shooting is just about impossible. The best advice to master trigger control is to spend as much time as neccessary dryfiring from the offhand position. This may take days of training several minutes a day. In my younger years in the Corps, we did this so much I grew to hate it. However it is the best training I know to cure the problem described.
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Post by RBinAR on Dec 21, 2006 3:18:54 GMT -5
8-)I see this pattern a lot. Most (actually all so far but you never know) of them occur with the plastic stock. I've had shooters who have pulled their hair out due to this problem and I've actually sent one rifle back to the customer saying I couldn't help.
The question I'd ask to nail the stock is: does it seem to work on some loads at times but just when you think it's OK the problem returns. If the answer is yes, throw the stock AND recoil lug away and get the good stuff.
The recoil lug is directly associated with the problem so if you don't mind trying it you can put a machined flat lug in and see if it helps. Knowing you taking the barrel off won't be a problem.
If it's a shooting problem all the group would be too big or one shot would be amiss. Two on two is a rifle problem.
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 21, 2006 6:55:53 GMT -5
Two on Two could be a rifle problem, but it is not Always a rifle problem.
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Post by edge on Dec 21, 2006 8:35:27 GMT -5
Sorry, not enough information here  The top target the 4 shots were left top, right bottom, left bottom, right top. The second picture with the 5 shot group is actually 2 targets, I reported this when I first posted this a while back. Shots 1,3&4 are about 5/8 high and +- 0.15 of center. Shot #2 is 1 1/4 right + about 0.1 I then shot a bunch of other experimental loads on another target, none near the bull I decided to shoot one last shot, and since I had assumed that the previous shot #2 was a flier, that I would put one in the bull. I purposely aimed 1/2 inch low and thought that I would hit the X within about 0.1 as the other three shots had. Disgusted I left the range and later noticed that if I had used the normal aiming point that it would have been the twin of shot #2 on the other target. I have since completely bedded this rifle from rear of the recoil lug to rear pillar. I also removed material to ensure that the tang is floated. The barrel is free of any contact with the forearm. The trigger control issue is 100% better with yesterday's target then the previous one due to replacing the 3# spring with a 1 1/2 # Accu-Trigger spring BUT, BUT, still not good ;D I also had speculated that I was not consistent with my sabot petal sawing and alignment on the old target since it was random. I have since modified my procedure: 1) When I machine the rifling, instead of 8 grooves, I added a 9th groove @ 5 degrees; 2) I mark this "clocking" groove with a marker, as seen in the picture, and I always saw down this groove; 3) I have marked one barrel land at the bore and always start the sabot with the black mark at this spot so that the sabot alignment is consistent. My thoughts are that this is mechanical. I find it hard to believe that I could so consistently move the poi back and forth by poor trigger usage....bu maybe I had hoped that bedding would have corrected this, but obviously not. Another note is that the action is a Model 110 and it is a repeater with the magazine intact which does not make the stock as rigid as if it were a single shot model. I did bed a 0.100 thick x 1.00 plate of steel on either side of the magazine in an attempt to make the stock more rigid. Since it is hunting season, and the rifle is ok accurate out to reasonable ranges, I won't do any more bedding until mid-February when the ML season closes. At that time I may try one last attempt to add a few inches to the area in front of the recoil lug, as 1Shot has mentioned before. I will also add a one piece base too. I was hoping that someone would say YES, cheek weld could be it, I will try to come up with a more consistent way of locating my face, I also normally don't use a rabbit ear bag and I'll remember to add that to my box of gear too. Thanks for the suggestions......any more ;D edge. |
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Post by dans on Dec 21, 2006 9:23:35 GMT -5
My tupperware stock can actually be flexed in the rifle rest. I have a tendency to bear down when trying to shoot a good group and the rifle will move in the rest if I pull down on the foreend. I tend to tighten up and force the crosshairs where I want them to go. I have been working on trying to relax more and not flex the stock. This has eliminated some of the annoying shots that ruin a good group. I have had to add pads to my Savage rifle stocks in order to get decent cheekweld and get my shooting eye lined up properly with the scope.
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Post by bluedog on Dec 21, 2006 10:16:46 GMT -5
Cheek weld is critical to good consistent shooting...I fix that issue with cheek pads. But where do I get one of those 1 1/2# accu-trigger springs for my rifle. I need one!
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Post by edge on Dec 21, 2006 10:28:09 GMT -5
Cheek weld is critical to good consistent shooting...I fix that issue with cheek pads. But where do I get one of those 1 1/2# accu-trigger springs for my rifle. I need one! You need to check with Sharp Shooter Supply often. They sell out in a immediately as they are only replacement springs from someones rifle. I understand that Savage will be offering 1 1/2 # triggers on more of their rifles this year so they may become a common item...but it still may remain a Savage only item edge. |
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Post by ozark on Dec 21, 2006 10:38:57 GMT -5
A thin face can cause the eye to be past the axis of the scope while a thicker face can be short of the axis unless pressed. Also the weld should be in a manner that the eye is at the correct elevation. Positioning the weld in a manner that provided perfect eye position takes some practice but is important. Naturally a comfortable correct cheek weld depends much on how the rest of the body is positioned. As Rifleman point out the natural point of aim is important. When one gets the body positioned so that the rifle points at the aiming point without having to mussle it in any direction there will be better results. dans speaks of having a tendency to bear down. I think it is best to find a natural point of aim without any need to bear down or intentally press in any direction. It takes some practice and wiggling about to assume the natural point of aim but once we learn to do that it is automatic and quickly taken. I get the proper cheek weld and hold it while taking the appropriate body movement to gain the natural point of aim. Our teams in practice did some position shooting where we assumed a natural point of aim and simply closed our eyes and fired a sequence of five rounds allowing our body to resettle into the natural point of aim between shots. Groups of ten to twelve inches at 200 yards with the eyes closed were not uncommon.
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Post by edge on Dec 21, 2006 10:55:42 GMT -5
A thin face can cause the eye to be past the axis of the scope while a thicker face can be short of the axis unless pressed. Also the weld should be in a manner that the eye is at the correct elevation. SNIP. I think that the elevation is fairly consistent, could the eye placement move the poi by an inch @ 100 yards? edge. I am never comfortable at the bench and am constantly wrestling to stay on target. That is one of the main reasons for slapping the trigger! Also I am never sure if I am moving my head or the rifle to get on target. I think that I need to have someone else shoot my rifle or I need more of a machine rest |
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Post by ozark on Dec 21, 2006 11:25:30 GMT -5
Edge you are a success at everything you apply effort in. At the bench you might try arranging things so that you are sitting more in an upright position rather than leaning forward and over. "Could the eye placement move POI by an inch @100 yards?" Not if parallax is set at that range. Failing to have the body positioned at a natural point of aim causes this wrestling to stay on target. I have read before where you believe yourself to be a weak shooter at the bench but fine hunting. It is probable that you are trying to hard at the bench for perfection. Relax and simply apply the techniques and fundamentals and if the rifle and load is accurate the results will come. We all have a wobble area so don't attempt to shoot better than your wobble area. It can't be done. Let me hasten to say that our wobble area can be decreased with sound practice. Underline SOUND
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Post by getonit on Dec 21, 2006 15:40:52 GMT -5
My guess would be with RB's in that its more of a stock problem than a cheek weld problem- for the group to dance consistantly as on the fist pic to me says the shooters doing his part the recoil lug may not be doing its part though...I feel that Im not a good paper shooter either - I'll almost always pull a shot when trying a 5 shot group- but the one that concerns me most is the first shot I take- the one that may also be first on a deer during season has to be there at practice... Rick
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Post by Blue-Dot-37.5 on Dec 21, 2006 19:11:22 GMT -5
Edge:
I shoot off of the bench to test loads and the accuracy of the gun, not me. For my accuracy, I shoot from different positions like what would be encountered in the field.
I have a "machine" type rest that is very similar to the Caldwell Lead Sled. I can leave the gun in the rest, and take my hands off of the gun, and it will stay on target.
Dwight showed me what I was doing wrong in holding the gun, (my thumb was over the wrist, not directly behind the action where it is supposed to be, right Dwight?) and that shrunk the group size, even from the rest. I also noticed that if the gun wanders off of the "X" and my hand has to apply pressure to the gun to get back to the center of the "X", the shot will be off towards where the gun wants to naturally point without any pressure on it, however slight. If the gun isn't pointed and you need to "muscle" it back on target, it won't shoot the same shot-to-shot. You should invest in a good rest if you want to test the gun's accuracy IMHO.
On my laminate stock, the cheekpiece is so high that I cannot use the stock Savage breechplug removal tool - it hits the cheekpiece before it engages the breechplug. But my eye lines up with the center of the scope!
Blue-Dot-37.5
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Post by edge on Dec 21, 2006 19:29:11 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone My thumb is on the tang to prevent torque...that improved groups whether right or wrong. Next range visit I will take real bags. I will Take aim, close my eyes and wait a few seconds. If I open them and I am not still on target I will adjust until I can stay on target. An option would be to add a strap to a bag to hold them tight and then use free recoil. That way only my trigger is touching the rifle during firing...any thoughts? It is a solid 12 pound rifle so it kicks less than a 30-06, when I shoot 150 grain bullets, IMO. edge. |
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Post by Blue-Dot-37.5 on Dec 21, 2006 19:48:18 GMT -5
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Post by KerryB on Dec 21, 2006 22:21:23 GMT -5
I think you will see some really wild shots if you try to shoot free recoil with your rifle strapped to bags or a benchrest. Any accurate free recoil shooting i've ever experienced was with the stock free to slide back in recoil. Keep in mind, that was with benchrest stocks matched to the proper bags in a quality benchrest setup, and plenty of teflon tape and talcum to provide completely free movement. Guess the only way to know is to try it, but i think there is going to be too much uncontrolled torque and movement without a benchrest stock and proper rests. Kerry
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 22, 2006 2:41:46 GMT -5
Ok, the way I see it it there are two issues here. First an accuracy one with the gun/load. Reading groups is right up there next to reading tea leaves. One doesn't get as good at it as they would like to, they just get good at selling the concept. I honestly can tell quite a bit from a group once I know either the shooter is right or I know the gun is right, if both are suspect, then I shoot the gun myself. Personally at this point I believe there is a gun/load problem. I do agree with Rb about the gun, because I have seen this 2 group shooting with a couple of these Savage rifles. However I also believe Edge needs some help with his bench technique from his own testimony. I don't usually see two different good groups caused by poor trigger control. I have seen it due to poor position which also causes a loss of natural point of aim. Bluedot was right when he said he saw shots wander when he had to apply pressure to the gun to get it back to center. Other's commented about using various rests to help out. With bench shooting I agree that one should use whatever is necc. to shrink the wobble area and allow one to find and maintain a natural point of aim. The hard part about shooting muzzle loaders is that one must get out of position after every shot. So it becomes necc. to fine tune our technique. Doing things both mechanically and technique wise will help. Mark a spot on the stock to get the same eye relief and point of cheek weld. Be aware of how much pressure is applied with the shooting hand and the face and try to be consistent. Use whatever it takes to get a steady and comfortable position. I will mention that the wobble area on the bench needs not to be accepted unless it is at least less then 1/2 moa. If the crosshairs are moving around more then that, then you need to get your rests squared away. I think a control gun would be in order here. If there is an accurate light recoiling varmint rifle available, use it to practice technique and when the groups are acceptable with that rifle, then you can come back to the muzzleloader and have a much better idea if the rifle or the shooter is to blame. Bluedot mentioned grip and placement of the thumb. You can wrap it around the wrist or lay it along the tang, but this is really an individual thing. It depends on the rifle style and it depends on the shooters hand size. The important thing is that it should be firm but not so tight as to introduce wobble, and it should allow for the trigger finger to have as little contact with the rifle as possible. The "book" answer is that there should be NO contact of the trigger finger with the rifle. However I have small hands and I have found almost no rifles that I could accomplish that with. Some guys can do it though, and they should. More importantly though is a consistent grip pressure that will not allow the rest of the hand or fingers to move when pressure with the trigger finger is applied.
In any process of elimination such as this there needs to be a control element. Either another shooter of known skill to shoot the rifle as Edge mentioned. Or another rifle should be introduced to allow Edge to see if his technique is right. I have used the control rifle or sometimes control ammo to work out problems I have faced before. For example, if I am testing a .308 rifle I always take some Fed 168 gr match with me. I know this ammo shoots lights out in almost every 308 out there. Sometimes when I have been shooting poorly with a given rifle, I will pull out one of my known accurate combos just to double check myself. Everyone can have a bad day, and a rifle thats accuracy is unknown can cause one to second guess yourself and the problems tend to escalate from there. Just some thoughts on the subject.
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Post by E.T. on Dec 22, 2006 8:13:25 GMT -5
Edge For the recoil lug bedding I found a depth of approximately 3/16” is all that was required for my 10ML-II. This operation was also done after receiver bedding that initially aligned my barrel to the stock axis. The one step I do recommend is having the stock at least on a 45degree angle so when you are placing the receiver back on the stock the lug is against the stop sliding in.  With this method of lug bedding I can remove the stock and re-install it with virtually no change of POI or break in shot/s required. Horizontal grouping disappeared in my case and any shots moving horizontally was either me or wind factor. I believe by bedding the lug this way that the initial directional movement from recoil has to be upward as the bedding prevented any initial side movement. Don’t know if anything here said is helpful to you but I thought I would offer it as food for thought. Ed |
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Post by edge on Dec 22, 2006 8:53:00 GMT -5
I tried some of the suggestions last night to see if there was something obvious with my routine. As Rifleman mentioned, the constant up and down for reloading does not make for consistency. My right hand strangles the stock and closing my eyes and starting to squeeze moves the poa about 3 inches to the left which makes me muscle it back to the right. In looking back over my targets the first shot is almost always dead center so I am hunting accurate...I hope Since I am off next week I may put on the one piece base for a little more peace of mind. It also gives me a chance to make sure the bases are completely tight. I use loc-tite so I doubt that they came loose. When I cut the barrel threads and shoulder I had anticipated going to a larger recoil lug but got the rifle done before I ordered it. As a result I made a ground spacer to take up the extra 1/16, I think that it may be time to order the recoil lug and install it to take that item off the table. The bedding looked very good, but I'll take the action out and make sure there is no crud that could have crept in while I wasn't looking. I suspect that I'll work on the forearm of the stock after the New Year starts and it can set up properly. I suspect that a Laminated stock is in my future. I do kind of regret not going with a single shot action at this point, but it is nice to store spare primers in the magazine...certainly no fumbling in the field Thanks again everyone and as soon as I can implement some of these changes I'll let you know if they work.....I know that I can shoot a deer, the question is can I shoot paper ;D edge. |
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Post by ozark on Dec 22, 2006 15:24:34 GMT -5
I agree with Riflemans post. I do have some comments that could be helpful to those who have the desire, patience and tenacity to reach their full potential as a shooter. Not everyone have the eye nerves and the same potential. If we all become as good as we can possibly be there will still be a rather wide gap between the top and the bottom. This skill has multi tasks that must be blended. Perfect the trigger control and the natural point of aim may be out of whack. It goes on and on. Training and position work can decrease the wobble area but we have a beartbeat and natural trembling that occurs which is uncontrolable. It is not possible for everyone to become a distinguished shooter and it is not needed to fully enjoy the sport of shooting. On the hundreds of points that could be discussed I will isolate one here. The Wobble area. When you hold a rifle in your hands supported by your body the cross hairs will not settle and stay on the aiming point. It will drift from perfect to away from perfect in a rather consistent fashion. Since attempting to fire at the perfect sight picture is sure to develop into a jerk it is suggest that one take aim, diminish the wobble area as small as possible then CONSTANTLY AND CONTINOUSLY apply pressure directly rearward until the hammer falls. But, I emphasise that this is only one factor. Breathing, body tensness and a dozen other things enter. There should be a school with competent instructors available in each state for the sport but I know of none outside the Military and a few scattered clubs. Much emphasis in this forum is placed on our equipment. I am convinced that getting the nut behind the buttplate adjusted correctly is more important. You can buy an accurate rifle but you can't buy the skill involved. I admire the attitude of edge. He is a very talented man is his field but is aware that in other areas he has room for learning. Great attitude to have.
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Post by Blue-Dot-37.5 on Dec 22, 2006 17:08:53 GMT -5
Ozark:
Good post.
I was fortunate when I attended college. There was a Rifle team on campus, so I tried out for the team and made it. In the 2 years that I shot on the team, I averaged over 600 rounds a week. This was 3 position .22lr, indoors @ 50 feet. We even practiced during semester breaks, so that was a LOT of shooting. Those rounds don't include the weekly or bi-weekly matches either.
There isn't any substitute for trigger time, but the trigger time must be quality time, not just blasting. Go to the range with a goal for that day, and just work on one problem at a time.
When I started high school, I got a spring air rifle. I'd shoot the crap out of it during the weekends, and that helped me to learn a consistent hold and trigger control. I did a LOT of shooting from the standing position, and the air rifle helped me the most, I believe.
I still think that a good quality air rifle will help anyone become a better shooter if they spend time shooting at paper, and concentrate on group size. Anybody can hit a can, but can they hit the center of the "P" in Pepsi consistently??
Mix things up to keep shooting fun, and remember aim small, miss small!
Blue-Dot-37.5
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Post by dans on Dec 22, 2006 20:47:08 GMT -5
Edge I just don't buy the idea that check weld doesn't effect your shooting. I just have no confidence in a shot taken when I have to adjust my head to be able to see squarely through the scope. I like to have that support when cheeking the stock snugly and feel that light contact leads to movement and a shot that is off. This probably does not explain the double grouping but then again it might. I had to shorten the overall length of pull on my primary deer rifle 1/2 inch and add a cheek pad to the comb to make the stock fit the way I liked. When you are in a hurry to get the shot away, you can't spend time fumbling around trying to find the right position on the stock. I guess that this has disintegrated into a stock fit post but proper stock fit should help on the bench also. That rifle should come up feel natural and comfortable and have you looking right at the crosshairs superimposed on the spot on the target you were looking at.
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Post by ozark on Dec 22, 2006 21:11:55 GMT -5
Blue-Dot, It was people like you that we picked up for tryouts each year in the Military marksmanship units. Some made it and many failed because we could only use the best of the best. Tryouts usually lasted three weeks in the Army with cuts being made daily and weekly.
We were not looking for good shots. We were looking for potential that could be developed. As an instructor and coach I wanted coachable people that were willing to change from their old ways of shooting to practicin fundamentals and techniques that had been proven winners in competition. Very often I would give a false windage change that was obviously wrong just to make sure the shooter would follow my orders. It they tried to second guess me and only pretend to make the change they often hit the bullseye only to be told that had they obeyed the order they would have been to the side of the bullseye. It has no doubt been noticed here that I like to blow my own horn. This stems from assisting people go from barely making the team to becoming recognized as among the worlds best. I was good but not great and stayed on the teams due to being able to teach, accurize rifles and pistols and coach teams. I probably hold a unique record. I coached the team that won the sixth Army Infantry Trophy team match three days after official retirement in 1969. This probably could have been protested but few knew. I agree that using a spring loaded air rifle is great practice. You must follow through and apply fundametals to hit the mark offhand. I am not a bench rest shooter and have never had a desire to be. This is no doubt the best test for pure rifle accurach but has little to do with the hunting woods or National Match course shooting. Doping wind is simular but little else. I know I am long winded and annoy some but I have a great desire to help others improve their shooting techniques. I have read the instructional posts made by Rifleman and can say without fear of being wrong that he knows what shooting is all about and has information that is worthy of being tasted, chewed, swallowed and digested. This is not to say others don't. I would love to see a section somewhere in this section of the best shooting tip I have ever had. By members. After all the whole nine yards of the shooting game is nothing but a collection of sound shooting tips. The knowledge I have is not all from the book and much of it comes from men who were winners at Perry, All Service and many sectional matches. I suppose my best tip of a lifetime of shooting is to listen to those who have good information that works regardless of their standing in the record books.
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Post by youp50 on Dec 22, 2006 21:18:17 GMT -5
Is it a group of two and then a group of two? Or is it alternating groups? I would tend to find another shooter and have him/her try your rifle. I would probably also pick a person that has limited disposable income  If your parallax is adjusted at 100 yards, your scope is not faulty, and you are shooting at 100 yards cheek weld is not a big issue. Cheek weld and stock fit becomes issues when you are shooting at a different range than your scope's parallax is adjusted for. A proper stock fit will position the shooters eye in the center of the scope's barrel, when the shooter has the proper cheek weld. This effectively eliminates parallax problems and allows optimum accuracy at ranges more or less than that which the parallax is adjusted for. I would try another scope. Preferably an 'Old Faithful'. |
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Post by Rifleman on Dec 23, 2006 5:49:47 GMT -5
The best shooting tip I was ever given was given to me by my Senior DI. He was not a shooting coach or instructor. His tip is applicable to many things besides shooting. He said this almost every day.
" Practice makes perfect, but if you practice wrong, you will just be perfectly wrong."
The best shooting tip I can give is more about the mental aspect then the technical. Since they say shooting is 90 percent mental, maybe it has some merit.
" Never be satisfied with good enough, realize you can be better then you are now, do not allow pride to keep you from seeking good instruction, and try to apply what you are taught."
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Post by rossman40 on Dec 23, 2006 17:00:08 GMT -5
My biggest thing with the 10ML has not been cheek weld but shoulder weld. With most rifles you are not removing the rifle from your shoulder during a 3 or 5 shot string. With the 10ML you change position for every shot and with the extra recoil I have found that I have to remember to get a good consistant form.
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