mikec
Six pointer
Posts: 75
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Post by mikec on Aug 2, 2008 7:51:28 GMT -5
Hi All,
I am looking at bullet sizers like the Lyman Lube Sizer and an appropriate die. Documentation seems slim, but Lyman and RCBS both show units available for sizing lead cast bullets. Can I use one of these to size a copper jacketed Parker Ballistic Extreme?
Mike
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Post by mshm99 on Aug 2, 2008 8:28:43 GMT -5
IMO ,No. I have used one for twenty years sizing cast bullets and I can advise you that it is not made for this kind of service. This was brought up a short time back ,and, at that time ,a number of us advised pushing the bullet through relatively inexpensive custom Lee re-sizer die, screwed into the top of a good loading press . A well lubed bullet,I might add.Solid copper bullets might be troublesome. Allow for about a .002 spring back.Big Moose was working on this,what did you learn? Conduct a search,this has been discussed quite a bit.
mshm
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Post by smokeeter on Aug 2, 2008 8:56:36 GMT -5
The sizing dies ( and press) for lead bullets works great for it's intended purpose but does not work very well with jacketed bullets and works even less effective on all copper.
All of my resizing/reforming is accomplished with custom sized dies and a 1 ton arbor press. The reloading type presses don't seem to have enough leverage for the task.
And adequate lubrication is also essential.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 9:48:01 GMT -5
What I learned is its hit and miss, on jacketed bullets you have spring back [ the only reason I posting this is Smokeeter refered to my efforts he is the EXPERT I'm playing around. but the .450 Lee die is perfect for running Parkers, in case you get some that are out of round, once thur the die, they are very accurate.
Here's what I'm doing, I take a Barnes TMZ .451, run it thur my .450 die, I have another die I am lapping, in the hopes of getting a bullet that will fit my Pac-Nor barrel, without knurling, but this info is useless to the board member, since I lapped my barrel too. So far, no luck, in the end I will have ruined the die, I'm lapping, I ordered another Lee die.449 as a back up.
This is what I.m doing, I would urge other members to look to folks like Rick, Edge, Steve and of cause,Smokeeter, who actually makes bullets.
I,m just playing, hoping to find lighting in a bullet. [bottle]
Beat wishes to all
Defiantly get an a one ton arbor press, I did ask Lee to make me a die, .449.7 or 8, they wanted $800.00 for it, since I have been out of work, for 23 years, that would break my piggy bank.
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 10:06:22 GMT -5
Mshm, I'm waiting for my Lee .450" re-sizing die. If the Parkers are ~.4505" as some have measured them, and if the "recovery" is the .002" as you said, then I'll end up with a bullet size of (.450 + .002) .452", which is considerably larger than I started with, won't I? I hope you just dropped a leading zero from .002".
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 10:43:52 GMT -5
Harley,
Parkers are .450 after you ran them thur the die, they are still .450, just now they are round
Any bullet thats egg shaped is very hard to load, however, none of this effects the accuracy of the bullet, I have found even bullets that I have to hammer down the barrel shoot well, I have no idea why that is. By hammer I mean using a rubber mallet to beat the down the barrel. In my test I'll find a bullet that goes in the muzzle and 3/4 of the way down stops, hence, the hammer
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mikec
Six pointer
Posts: 75
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Post by mikec on Aug 2, 2008 10:52:03 GMT -5
Sounds like I need a one ton press. Is a standard Lee, Lyman, or RCBS die OK? Do you load the bullet nose 1st and push it through the die with the press?
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 10:56:55 GMT -5
Bigmoose, I'm surprised that 3/4 of the way down the bullet becomes even tighter than at the muzzle. I would have thought just the opposite. Also, what I was wondering about was how much the bullet recovers its original diameter after re-sizing.
Harley
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 11:05:37 GMT -5
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 2, 2008 12:48:46 GMT -5
Our "hit and miss" problem with sabotless shooting is mostly about the size and composition of our bullets. For cartridge loading you normally use a bullet that is approximately the grove diameter of the barrel. When the charge fires the bullet is deformed by being forced into the rifling by 15K to 40K pounds of pressure which instantly swages matching groves into the oversized bullet and makes a complete seal. Since the bullet is larger than the land to land dimension of the barrel it forces more initial pressure rise insuring reliable ignition.
With our muzzleloaders it is too hard to push a bullet larger than the land dimension down the barrel. So we use smaller diameter bullets that are about the diameter of the lands and hope the acceleration caused by the charge igniting will deform it enough to fill up the groves creating a seal. We then have to use a "wonder wad" or similar to take care of the seal problem while the bullet is deforming, expanding to match the grove diameter of the barrel. Unfortunately since there is little resistance to the bullet initially we have more problem with poor ignition of our smokeless powder. That means more problems picking just the right powder to use.
Without a soft plastic sabot to simplify the problem it is quite an undertaking to find just the right powder, bullet diameter and bullet composition to make the compromises of easy insertion, good gas seal and reliable ignition, and get them to all work together. Apparently sabotless shooting in a gun loaded from the muzzle is not for the faint of heart. It is definitely more complex a task than shooting with sabots. Finding exactly the right bullet diameter to make a compromise between easy insertion and accuracy 'taint always easy. However, when the right combination is found, it is apparently very sweet!
I am quite sure someone like RB, SW, or Smokeeter could explain this much better than I and give clues as to how to best solve the problem for a particular rifle. I played with this a bit with 50 cal bullets and am looking forward to the arrival of my .409 Pac-Nor (.400 land-land) so I can start working on it in earnest.
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 12:56:15 GMT -5
Harley.
It maybe the way I lapped the barrel, remember, I had no idea what I was doing, I just wanted to try, I felt if I screwed it up, I could call Rick, and say HELP.
I think you will find, with out a Arbor Press [ one ton] you will have trouble, trying to resize all cooper bullets I was using a large bench vice and it took lots of effort to turn the handle with TMZ,
I hope you folks have great success, But I fear you will find, its not as easy as you think, a major factor will be the starting size of your barrel.
The only bullet I can shoot at of the box, is 300gr. Parkers. They were the target of my lapper project. The good new is they are sub-minute rounds.
I'm counting on all you new Pac-Nor shooters to find a way, to resize cooper bullets.
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 13:38:30 GMT -5
Sorry, Bigmoose, copper is not in my future. I'd be really happy to find a winning load for 275 grain Parker BE's.
You said an arbor press is almost a necessity for copper bullets; is re-sizing jacketed bullets easier for a regular bench press?
Harley
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 13:40:56 GMT -5
Chuck, you described the sabotless situation perfectly, I think, in terms anyone should understand. Are you also making a case for duplex powders, with their easier ignition?
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 14:09:46 GMT -5
Harley, I don't have a bench press [for bullets that is] I used a vise, now I have a Palmgren one ton Arbor Press, very nice peice of equipment
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Post by SW on Aug 2, 2008 14:13:15 GMT -5
Chuck, Are you also making a case for duplex powders, with their easier ignition? Harley I'm not Chuck but will comment. Sabotless bullets are harder to obturate than saboted bullets. The quicker(and more consistently) they are obturated, the better and more consistent the pressure will be generated. |
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 15:07:37 GMT -5
Hi, Steve. Sooo, it seems you are making a pretty strong case for duplex, right?
Harley
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 2, 2008 15:36:50 GMT -5
Chuck, you described the sabotless situation perfectly, I think, in terms anyone should understand. Are you also making a case for duplex powders, with their easier ignition? Harley Since I am Chuck, I will respond as well. SW is the man!! His experience shooting sabotless speaks volumes to me. SW's recommendation is the reason I ordered the 40, and his duplex loads will be the first I try in my new Pac-Nor. I fully expect that the results will be nothing less than outstanding! Based on previous posts, RB apparently prefers single powder loads for sabotless. I am quite sure his choice of powders is also designed to achieve that fast obturation of the bullet SW talked about. From my understanding of RB's posts this choice is because he did not find the more complex duplex loads to be necessary to achieve the results he was looking for. Perhaps he will weigh in as well. I don't like to plow new ground when not absolutely necessary so I will use the loads these two fine Arkansas gentlemen have so generously given us and say to both them "Thank you very much!!" Now if Edge would just find a couple dull days with nothing to do and would like to turn out a few 40/357 PVC sabots . . . . . . |
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 15:59:52 GMT -5
If any of you folks are in the market for an arbon press Enco has a sale at this time....Palmgren One Ton, they pay the shipping
61.95 complete.
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 16:34:42 GMT -5
Marty, I looked up the picture of the Palmgren press, but I don't have a clue how it mates with the Lee re-sizing die. Can you explain it? Do I need any other fittings to mate the two?
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 2, 2008 17:07:06 GMT -5
Harley,
You do nothing, just put the die under the shaft and lower it. Lee die's are smooth as silk You don't need to use the rotating bottom plate.
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Post by richard on Aug 2, 2008 17:55:23 GMT -5
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Post by mshm99 on Aug 2, 2008 18:50:36 GMT -5
I can't add much to the collective wisdom above. I have resized XTP's for use in 7.62 X25mm hand gun . It distantly relates to this. My view is to buy the sizer die smaller and lap bigger if needed. Spring back is probubly going to be different with each brand of bullet. With a little imagination,a welder,scrap metal and a bottle jack you can make a servicable press.Just my 2 cents.
mshm
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 20:07:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Rich, that is the site I had seen earlier. I think I'll order it; at least it's on sale.
Thanks for pointing it out, Marty.
Harley
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Post by DBinNY on Aug 2, 2008 20:16:00 GMT -5
Now if Edge would just find a couple dull days with nothing to do and would like to turn out a few 40/357 PVC sabots . . . . . . Chuck, as long as you are buttering Edge up, why don't you shoot for the moon and have him whip you out some .40/.284's or something along those lines. A 7mm bullet at about 3000fps... |
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Post by savagebrother on Aug 2, 2008 21:59:32 GMT -5
man you guys are making this thing hard, i just load 65 grains of h 322 and slide a w-w wad and then a 275 parker and poof 1 1/4" groups at 100 yards all day long. oh velocity- 2650 fps.
the 275's slide down the barrel about like a loose sabot. you want your bullet to obturate you gotta put some powder behind it, or duplex. just my 2 cnts worth
savagebrother
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Post by Harley on Aug 2, 2008 22:17:24 GMT -5
Sounds great, Savagebrother; a couple of questions:
1. What's your lands diameter? I certainly can't slide a Parker down my barrel.
2. What diameter W-W? .40-.45 or .45?
3. What thickness W-W? Someone suggested two W-W's.
I'd certainly like to have your results.
Harley
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mikec
Six pointer
Posts: 75
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Post by mikec on Aug 3, 2008 6:48:40 GMT -5
FYI.
Midway has .450 and .446 dies in stock. Sale at $ 17.95 each. At the home page click on bullet casting, then sizing dies.
Mike
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Post by bigmoose on Aug 3, 2008 7:05:46 GMT -5
mikec,
I paid 29.00 each for my 449 and 450, its called "bullet lubricating and sizing kit" It you end up needing a .449 bore, that will take lots of lapping.
Of course, I'm sure that would not be a problem for folks, who have lapped before.
Good Luck
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