Puzzled by these events.....

[contender]

I shoot the following load:
43 grs. IMR SR4759
Winchester Primer
Orange MMP Sabot
Hornady .458 diameter bullet

I shot a deer on a Monday night and the gun had been loaded for over a week.

Loaded the gun again on Tuesday and hunted the rest of the week. Temps were in the 30 degree range and kept the gun in the unheated garage when I came back from the woods. Sunday was the last day of the season and I hunted in the afternoon and it was 13 degrees with the windchill below 0.

When walking by the pond at dark on Sunday I pointed the gun at the bank of the dam and pulled the trigger. Got a pop that seemed a little louder than a primer and heard something go plunk in the water. Put the ramrod down the barrel and pushed what I thought was the load and then it stopped just like seating a load. The thing was, my witness mark was inside the barrel. Decided I had better not shoot that and would pull the plug and find out what was going on.

Took the plug out tonight. Got some amount of powder out and a sabot with part of one petal missing. The end of the missing petal was smooth like it had seen some heat. The bullet was gone, that must have been what went plunk in the water.

I could see a misfire in that temperature (not sure how temperature sensitive 4759 is). I could also see the primer moving the bullet off the powder, but I am really puzzled by the bullet being pushed out of the barrel and the sabot staying in the barrel. I was standing about 20 feet from the edge of the water so that bullet made it quite a ways.

So what do the experts say. Is 4759 temperature sensitive? Is my load loose enough that the load did not build up enough pressure? Or was this just one of those freak things that will probably never happen again? What other explanations am I missing? I can accept a missfire as long as it is not caused by something that I can control. At least all I missed was the bank on the dam and not the biggest buck I have ever seen in 25 years of hunting.

[E.T.]

No expert here but experienced enough that it was not 4759 that could be faulted.
Loose fit probably because of partial missing sabot petal. If sabot was damaged before or during loading you should have noticed a lighter load resistance when seating the bullet sabot combination. If not then I don’t have any other conceivable explanation to offer.


Ed

[wilmsmeyer]

Very odd. Your gun may have been cold enough that a slightly loose loading sabot became looser in the extreme cold. Or your powder was slightly "contaminated". Or both. The momentum of the bullet could very easily dislodge it from the sabot and plunk it into the water....leaving the sabot in the barrel. I've seen this personally with 4227 back in the day.

Not sure about the sabot. I have a batch of OLD hornady sabots for my .54 thunderhawk that have become brittle. When loading them this year, petals would snap off. Could you have had a petal snap off while loading and not realize it?

Like I say, I'm struggling with this part of your question as it is very odd. I hunt cold conditions and shoot targets in them too. Misfire due to your powder selection is low...IMO and IME

[youp50]

Try a search on Winchester primers. I don't use them and never have. I think there have been some kind of issues with them. Try CCI 209M. That should deal with no ignition.

The sabot separating from the bullet and petal missing? I have had some ignition issues with H4198 and 250 xtp. I am certain it is lack of pressure and low temperature. The bullet and sabot have always stayed together, at least until it hit the snow.. I have had a bullet sabot travel 50 yards when the powder failed to ignite.

[ma]

Jan 11, 2009 16:06:24 GMT -5 youp50 said:

Try a search on Winchester primers. I don't use them and never have. I think there have been some kind of issues with them. Try CCI 209M. That should deal with no ignition.

The sabot separating from the bullet and petal missing? I have had some ignition issues with H4198 and 250 xtp. I am certain it is lack of pressure and low temperature. The bullet and sabot have always stayed together, at least until it hit the snow.. I have had a bullet sabot travel 50 yards when the powder failed to ignite.

The biggest issue is Winchester makes more than one primer.

Was the primer used the "Shotgun Primer" or could it have been the "Triple Seven" primer. The T7 primer is NOT hot enough. It is not likely that a "Shotgun" primer caused this.

[contender]

The primer was a standard Winchester 209.

It was not a 777 primer.

Since we are talking primers, I was at my favorite gun store a few weeks ago and they were telling me about some of their customers Savages were getting real dirty on the bolt face. They said they could not figure it out until the owner started using a new box of Winchester primers and his gun did it. He said that Winchester has recently started producing their primers in a different factory and this seemed to be the cause. My primers are old enough they would not fall into this. Has anyone else heard of this?

[ma]

That is really puzzling then. 4759 is NOT prone to misfires especially with a 300 gr bullet. How tight does it load with the MMP Orange.

When I shot BO's I went to the Harvestor strictly because the MMP just did not "feel" tight enough to me.

Not doubting you at all but I just can't imagine bullet leaving the barrel and sabot staying unless it was just too loose to begin with and the cold made it show up!

I would try different sabot and primer. I don't wish to start a war but I have never been a big fan of Win 209 Primers. Mainly because Fed 209A were always a tad faster with any load I tested.

Now I have setup 2 different guns that would not hit the Feds deep or hard enough to go reliably and I set those up with the CCIm and they shoot fine.

Seem like the Feds were a bit deeper to the cup, but that could be individual lot numbers also.

Primers in general seem to lack quality control compared to those of just a few years back.

[huntingmike]

When I used to shoot a Knight Predator I used MMP sabots and I had bought several. One pack I had was a few years old and became brittle in cold weather. When I loaded I did not notice any change in pressure. I shot at a deer at close range. When the gun went off it sounded strange and I missed the deer at close range. I then tried to reload and the petal broke from sabot as it went down the barrel. I then had to shoot it out. I was very upset at the time. I checked all the old sabots by flexing the petals and almost all in the bag broke in the cold temperature. I always check the pliability now after all these years. I now use bcr's and this has not been an issue. But old habits are hard to break.

[richard]

Over 1255 Winchester 209 primers thru my rifle and not a hic-cup!
Richard