Another Accuracy Issue

[davegreene]

Guys, I have had my Savage for two seasons now and I am unable to shoot groups under 3" or so. I am shooting 41 gr of 5744, with a .452 XTP and an MMP short black sabot. The rifle has been bedded and the recoil lug is tight against the bedding. My front scope mount has been ground so that it no longer touches the recoil lug. My stock screws are set at 25 inch pounds. My scope and mounts are rock solid. I am shooting from a very solid platform and am getting the shots off with proper form. I am also allowing the barrel to cool in between shots. The only thing that I can come up with is that my bullet/sabot combo may be loose. The bullet goes down much easier than on my Thompson Omega, which I could shoot 1.5" fairly consistently. Is there anything else that I can try? Thanks so much, Dave.

[ma]

Jan 11, 2009 15:11:09 GMT -5 davegreene said:

Guys, I have had my Savage for two seasons now and I am unable to shoot groups under 3" or so. I am shooting 41 gr of 5744, with a .452 XTP and an MMP short black sabot. The rifle has been bedded and the recoil lug is tight against the bedding. My front scope mount has been ground so that it no longer touches the recoil lug. My stock screws are set at 25 inch pounds. My scope and mounts are rock solid. I am shooting from a very solid platform and am getting the shots off with proper form. I am also allowing the barrel to cool in between shots. The only thing that I can come up with is that my bullet/sabot combo may be loose. The bullet goes down much easier than on my Thompson Omega, which I could shoot 1.5" fairly consistently. Is there anything else that I can try? Thanks so much, Dave.

Whenever someone comes to me with a problem like this and all else should be OK. I do 2 things first.

1. Different bullet with same powder.

2. Different powder with same bullet.

It seems to me that these guns are much more sabot/bullet dependent than powder dependent.

First thing I would recommend is to determine speed and or bullet type needed for your needs. There is definitely a myriad of combos out there.

Biggest thing to NOT do is go off on a goose chase of unknown untested combos as some have done here in the past and wonder why they have so much trouble with their gun.

Pick 2 or 3 tried and true loadings and test. If none of these help you have got something else going on.

The best 2 grouping loads I have tested in a .50 to date bar none have been the 250 SST in HPH sabot with a tuned duplex load and the 300gr Barnes Original in Harvestor Sabot with single powder load.

Tell us what your end needs are and someone here can help with loads.

Do you need to shoot over 200yds (speed must not be an issue if 5744 suits you). What size/kind of animals hunted i.e.

And always remember that these guns are hard on scopes. What scope are you using. I have had this gun cause both very minor and very major POI shifts from scopes.

[Panhandle]

Dave,
You mentioned that you thought your sabot fit is too loose with .452 bullets and short black mmp's. My Savage is the same with that combination. I started using the Harvester Red Crushed Rib sabots with .452 bullets both SST's and XTP's and got better results [snug fit] made for better accuracy. I think all on this board would agree that a snug fit works best. Also you might want to adjust your powder load up a grain at a time until you hit 45 with the 5744. Something to consider.
Good luck...Zen

[davegreene]

Savage Shooter, thanks for the reply. To answer your questions, speed is not an issue for me as I hunt in an area where 100yds is a rarity. Truthfully, all of my deer have been taken in under 60yds. The scope that I am using is a Bushnell 4200 Elite 2.5X10, but I had similar results with my Leopold Rifleman.

[ma]

Jan 11, 2009 16:23:21 GMT -5 davegreene said:

Savage Shooter, thanks for the reply. To answer your questions, speed is not an issue for me as I hunt in an area where 100yds is a rarity. Truthfully, all of my deer have been taken in under 60yds. The scope that I am using is a Bushnell 4200 Elite 2.5X10, but I had similar results with my Leopold Rifleman.

Panhandle is right also about trying the Harvestor sabot. It may even be a bit tougher than the MMP. That would sure be cheap to try.

Doubtful that your problems are scope related it acted the same way with another scope.

You have plenty of bullet and performance for short range whitetail work. Looks like you need a bit of accuracy help mostly.

If you should ever need to go to a flatter load some of these guys here have sure pushed the envelope.

Try a bit tighter sabot fit and let us know what happens.

Course you can always make the jump to much faster loads. But then you will sure be addicted for sure. Let us know how it goes or if you want to go faster.

[SW]

Savage Shooter and Pan Handle have good advice. Also, a simple thing you could do is to knurl(place the bullet between 2 bastard files - one could work - and roll the bullet between, in order to make it slightly thicker) and retry the 250XTP. Also, I do think the powder load would work better in the 45g range. Make sure your ventliner hasn't worn very much. I'd put in a new one just to make sure if there is any doubt. For 150yds and closer, this should be a great powder and bullet combination.

[shooter]

Jan 11, 2009 15:11:09 GMT -5 davegreene said:

Guys, I have had my Savage for two seasons now and I am unable to shoot groups under 3" or so. I am shooting 41 gr of 5744, with a .452 XTP and an MMP short black sabot. The rifle has been bedded and the recoil lug is tight against the bedding. My front scope mount has been ground so that it no longer touches the recoil lug. My stock screws are set at 25 inch pounds. My scope and mounts are rock solid. I am shooting from a very solid platform and am getting the shots off with proper form. I am also allowing the barrel to cool in between shots. The only thing that I can come up with is that my bullet/sabot combo may be loose. The bullet goes down much easier than on my Thompson Omega, which I could shoot 1.5" fairly consistently. Is there anything else that I can try? Thanks so much, Dave.

Dave,I have some 300 gr Barnes originals and some crush rib. PM with your address.I will send you some to try fore free.I shot the 300 gr barrens with 43 gr 5744 and is shot great I also shot it with 60 gr n-120 and it shot great.Thanks Marty
The barrens and crush rib will be tight.

[ma]

I forgot to add make sure Breech Plug is has carbon pushed out at least every 100 shots. But I was assuming the gun has never shot less than 3" or has this just started?

[ozark]

Three inch groups at 100 yards are not terrible and would take deer consistently at that range. But I know you want better. I would use 44 grains of 5744 if shooting the 250 grain bullets. If they load loose then that is likely your problem. You can wrap paper around the bullet to create a tight fit while obtaining a sabot that loads tight. Pushing the load down the bore should require considerable effort. 50-60 lbs. of pressure isn't too much. After seating the load firmly give the ramrod a coupld blows with the palm of you hand to more firmly seat the load.
I like to shoot at targets on paper that are one inch in size. Shooting at large bulls eyes can be more difficult. Good luck and keep us informed. Ozark

[E.T.]

Davegreene

You mentioned using .452” xtp bullets. If you are using the 250 then try the 300 that should be a little tighter going down the bore. A good snug fit with any bullet sabot combination is a must for repeatable performance in IMO.

Front scope mounts can also play havoc here if they are not properly seated tight.

1) If the front mount screws are too long then they will bottom out before properly locking down the front mount.
2) If this is not the case these screws can loosen ever so slightly if locktite is not used. You won’t necessarily be able to feel this. Recently while taking my scope off in preparation for another scope installation I decided to check my front mount screws for tightness and found I could tighten them just a little more to the level I normally do. All I am suggesting here don’t take it for granted they are tight because you don’t feel any movement or play.

Along with Savage Shooter’s recommendations I hope you pin this group size problem down quickly.


Ed

[davegreene]

Guys, thanks for the great advice. I keep my vent liner and breech plug clean. I even run a patch down the barrel between shots, although I've tried shooting it dirty too. I'm leaning towards the issue being the MMP/XTP combo. They shot great out of my Omega but they were an absolute bear to ram down. They go down my 10ML with ~20lbs. Shooter, I sent you a PM with my address, thanks for the offer. Can anybody give me a source for Harvestor sabots? Thanks again very much, Dave.

[wilmsmeyer]

All the posts above give you ammo to improve. However, if you are a hunter shooting at less then 100 yds all day long....it seems as if you are already minute-of-heart all day long.

You are a lucky man! You are shooting a very mild load. No recoil issues. Any bullet you choose will be great at those speeds.

The need for improvement is a good thing. If you must do better, I would go with a bullet/sabot combo that was tight and consistently so. You did not mention your inbetween shot routine. A heavily fouled barrel may be one way to increase loading pressure. Also, are you an accomplished shooter with other guns? If you have buddies that are (assuming you may not shoot a lot) have them shoot your gun a little and see if they do better.

A huge variable here with all of us is the skill level we all have behind the trigger. It's a variable that is hard to measure and quantify and could possibly be the cause of some of our woes.

Just some thoughts

[ozark]

Wilms, how dare you insinuate that some of us could be less than perfect marksman. Everyone here can bust eggs consistently at 100 yards with a rifle that can't shoot groups less than four inches on paper. Some even wren eggs. Shame on you. Ozark

[petev]

I shot that combo when I first got my Savage and had about the same results. A 300 gr. bullet seems to be consistently what most shooters have had luck with. You need an appropriate sabot- .452 bullet with red crush rib, .458 with black cr or orange MMP sabot, Barnes Original with the appropriate sabot, etc. Pete

[8ptbuk]

Dave
When you shoot, Do you hold your gun down or do you let it go or in other words let the muzzle come up with the recoil Ive had better groups holding the gun down. Other guy's might do it different but it's worked for me. I would also change the ventliner and clean the barrel good. I had Accuracy problems in the past also. Hope this helps !!! 8ptbuk

[shooter]

Jan 11, 2009 17:32:14 GMT -5 davegreene said:

Can anybody give me a source for Harvester sabots?

I will put them in the mail on Monday.

Dave you can order them from harvester.
www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=7&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3&vmcchk=1&Itemid=3

[contender]

I started with 5744 and tried a bunch of bullet and sabot combinations. Was getting to the point where I was sorry I sold my Encore.

Finally switched to SR4759 and my groups improved considerbly with all the bullet and sabot combos tried with the 5744. I was then happy I sold the Encore.

Not saying that will work in your gun, but I think I would try a different powder.

[ma]

Jan 11, 2009 20:14:21 GMT -5 contender said:

I started with 5744 and tried a bunch of bullet and sabot combinations. Was getting to the point where I was sorry I sold my Encore.

Finally switched to SR4759 and my groups improved considerbly with all the bullet and sabot combos tried with the 5744. I was then happy I sold the Encore.

Not saying that will work in your gun, but I think I would try a different powder.

And I thought I had the only gun Savage ever made that JUST WILL NOT shoot any bullet I tried with 5744.

The same gun with a 2600fps 250 SST & duplex groups lights out.

[dans]

first I would try different sabots until I had a good tight fit. Probably an MMP hph-12. Once I had the tight fit if the gun still shot 3 in groups I would begin to up the powder charge by one grain at a time until I reached 45 grains. zzzIf it still hadn't shot 2 inches or under. I would change to 4759 at 42 grains and repeat the procedure until I reached 46.5 grains. If still not satisfactory. I would change to VVN-110 start at 42 grains and repeat the process until 45 grains are reached. By this time you should have found something satisfactory. If not then There are many other combinations to explore. Just keep posting on this board and you will receive kind and courteous help and your accuracy problem WILL be solved.

[ozark]

I like dans approach to working up a load. His approach will work provided that there are no issues with the rifle itself. What makes the search for accuracy frustrating sometimes is that no load will compensate for problems with the rifle, sighting system or the shooter's shortcomings. We must deal with how the rifle fits together, the scope, the way it is held or rested on bags or fixture. One thing can cause group spread but which one thing is the cause? To achieve accuracy cause or causes for inaccuracy must be eliminated by discovery or by accident. My approach is to troubleshoot the components of the rifle first, my own techniques second, the shooting fixture or foundation third and finally the load itself. It is like the old saying: For the want of a nail a shoe is lost, for the want of a shoe a horse is lost, for the want of a horse a rider is lost, and from the want of riders a battle is lost. One little thing can cause big problems and much frustration. But everyone knows all this. Isn't it great when we look, and search and fail time after time and then we find the cause and enjoy the great accomplishmnet. Ozark