The future of N120 looks bleak

[Nic_58]

I sent some e-mails today to check on the status of N120 powder and here is what I have so far.....

From Powder Valley---"Vihtavuori N120 was discontinued a long time ago".

From Midsouth Shooter's Supply---" I am sorry but on our end it shows that it has been factory discontinued".

From MidwayUSA---"I apologize the Vihtavuori N120 smokeless powder is listed as temporarily unavailable. With this status, I have no way of knowing when the product will be available for sale again".

I have sent 2 e-mails to Kaltron-Pettibone and haven't received a response from them. They are the importers of Vihtavouri and Lapua into North America. I also just sent an e-mail to Kaltron Outdoors which appears to be the parent company.

It looks as though if you have any N120 left, you had better ration it or be looking for another powder to replace it.

[Buckrub]

Well, I have small batches of 4 oz. each for sale for $2,131,994.99.

Delivered. In a very nice Decorator Package!

Or you could try these guys, but the price seems to be rising:

www.championshooters.com/store/product.php?productid=619

or

www.eabco.com/VVuori01.html

Sinclair still says they expect a shipment, but have no idea when.

Wonder what a phone call to Finland costs? Might be only way to get the real answer........

[ChrisChampion]

The good thing is there seems to be a good supply of H4198 around. I've only shot 30 or 40 times with this powder but I think it will do everything N120 will do.

[esmd]

I have 8lbs on order from Champion Shooters Supply, and boy am I glad I did. $177 made me cringe at first, but it looks like it was worth it. Hopefully it'll be here soon.

[weldor]

FYI ....I ordered my 8# jug from Champions about 10 days ago... It showed up on Wed.

I must agree with Chris about 4198. I shot VERY good with 65 grains of it last weekend with B.O's, #4500's, and 290 TMZ's. I must admit, I am very anxious to give 60 gr of N120 a try this Sunday...

[CraigF]

esmd said:

I have 8lbs on order from Champion Shooters Supply, and boy am I glad I did. $177 made me cringe at first, but it looks like it was worth it. Hopefully it'll be here soon.

Me too.

[esmd]

It'll take me a couple years, at least, to shoot up all the N-120 I have coming, so I'll be good. After I start running low, if it really is extinct as everyone is saying, then I'll be looking for alternatives. But I should be good for quite awhile.

[rossman40]

I doubt very much if N120 has been discontinued. VV went thru their powder line a few years back and took a lot of powders out of the line up. N105, 125, 132 and 134 were removed and enough of the magnum handgunners whined so much they still put out a batch of N105 every now and then. One guy tried to tell me the 500 series was supposed to replace the 100 but I do not see a 510 or a 520 so that is BS. The problem as I have been told is that N120 is the single base powder of choice for the 7.62X39 and with half the world using that round supplies are tight. Plus with half the powder companies in Europe joining up as EURENCO they are getting a control on the industry like in the Noble and Du Pont days. Face it, there are only about a dozen plants left outside the eastern bloc that make rifle and pistol powders. Out of the 3 in North America General Dynamics owns 2.

[wilmsmeyer]

The thing N120 seems to have is its' own niche. A powder that serves a certain performance level with 300 gr bullets. Can't really push it faster then it wants...2300 fps or so. This allows decent speed, tolerable recoil and apparently accuracy.

So yes...H4198 is good too...very good. Yet it come into its' own at higher speeds. A good 100-200 fps more with 300 gr bullets.

They are different. Yet at their best they are probably in the same league in the pressure dept when they perform their best.

If one had to lower themselves to a reliable H4198 load they may have to endure a little more recoil and that's it.

There's over a pound of N120 at camp and I've yet to fire a single shot with it as a single powder load. No good reason...just haven't needed to. It can't go 2,500 fps or more with the efficiency of H4198.

If I wanted to shoot 2200-2300 fps with 300's, I wouldn't use H4198....I'd probably be hounding every gunshop for N120!

Petal to the metal.....Wizzbang!

[Rifleman]

H322 at 75 grs runs about 2300fps with a 300 gr bullet with great accuracy. I would not worry to much about it, difference in felt recoil is negligible and it shoots great.

[ma]

rifleman said:

H322 at 75 grs runs about 2300fps with a 300 gr bullet with great accuracy. I would not worry to much about it, difference in felt recoil is negligible and it shoots great.

Never have quite understood all the N120 craze. I have shot a lot of it with 300 gr bullets and it shoots very well,

HOWEVER, not any better than H322 or 4198 and they are both available anytime.

[Buckrub]

Dang. And Savage Shooter was close enough that I could have actually delivered some N120 at my price! And he's not buying! There went my retirement idea. So much for "investing wisely".



I actually am yet to even shoot the stuff. Sigh. But when I do, I'm going to compare 60g of it CLOSELY to a duplex recipe a smart man gave me of 5g N110/50g H322....of which I have a dozen shots already measured out.

The reason I wanted it is that it appeared from my observation of You Guys' comments that N120 was a great compromise of a single powder load that wasn't so high in measure as to generate a recoil problem. Heck, even 60g is a lot, but not like 70g. I already flinch too much when I shoot ANYTHING........I don't need that problem. But if N110/H322 works like someone told me, I doubt I ever even use the N120. If both are the same, then I'll probably avoid duplex and use it.

And if not, I'll find something else. I have the World's Best Savage ML Powder/Bullet Experiment Station at my disposal right here! SOMETHING will turn up.

[CraigF]

There is a reason why N120 is hard to get now, part of it is a new change they made.

VV used to have one distrabution channel in the USA, I believe that it was/is Kaltron-Pettibone. About a year ago they made a deal with Hodgen to be a distributer for them. I found this out from a major local reloader store, Grafs. They gave me a number at Hodgen to call for more information. Hodgen confirmed that they are the big distrabution channel now and also that they did not pick up every VV powder. They picked up just the most popular ones in their words and they said N120 did not sell enough for them to add it.

Now, a gun shop probably allready has an account with Hodgen if they are huge or they get their supplies through a wholesaler who has an account with Hodgen. This is why they can't get it. When they call and ask their wholesaler if they can order N120 they are told no.

What we need to do when we want it, use the old supply chain or order straight from VV USA. You can order n120 from the VV website for $188 (8lb) plus shipping and fees right now. Or, order through www.championshooters.com for $144 plus fees ($177 total). What is funny is that it is the same 8 lb jug form the same place. Champion Shooters does not stock N120, but they have an agreement with VV that they can ship directly from them. When I put in my order they sent my address to VV and VV shipped to me.

If 8 lbs is more than you need or more than you want to spend, I recomend splitting one. KerryB and I did for our first order in case we didn't like it. If I wanted to split one I would be seeing if anyone else coming to the shoot on the 19th wanted to split it with me and do it there.

This powder really works well for me so I will continue to shoot it until I find a powder that costs less and is easier to get. I am paying $22 per pound now and that seems reasonable to me.

[edge]

Good information

I would suggest that folks try 4198. You may need to adjust your loads some, but if you can get it to work, you should never have a problem finding powder again.

edge.

[Buckrub]

Kevin, good info. that's exactly what I did. I now have 8 lbs but have 'orders' for 3 separate 1 or 2 lb 'sales'.

By the way, the $144.00 that I paid is now $160.00, fyi.

[Nic_58]

For anybody in the Tulsa, OK area, there is a place that has 2 bottles of N120 in 2 lb. containers in stock as of today as per the e-mail I received earlier. But, they don't ship hazmat so you'll have to pick it up at the store in Tulsa.
www.dongsguns.com/Products.asp?pg=4&cat=12&search=

[DannoBoone]

Competition being a very GOOD thing, perhaps this shouldn't even
be said......however, I am a duplex nut. Duplex of N110/N120 is
great here in the 60 degree range. Bad fact of powder, though, is
the combo is temp sensitive. As SW as pointed out, as temps fall to
30 degrees and below the reliable range of said duplex, so does the
speed, as well as accuracy. I haven't found this to be the case with
a duplex of N110/H322. As single charges go, H4198 seems to be
just as good, if not better, than N120.

For single powder users who love N120, keep requesting it, but
don't think your ship is sunk when alternatives are available. I
personally would hate to see N120 go completely by the wayside,
for reasons of competition, but all is not lost if you cannot get your
hands on it.

[Nic_58]

edge said:

I would suggest that folks try 4198.

You guys have talked me into it then! It seems like 4198 has quite a following with those in the know. After all, I wouldn't have ever tried N120 if it hadn't been for the others who had tried it before me and they were correct about it as far as being a great powder in the Savage. So, I have no doubts that 4198 will do the same. I'll be giving it a try sometime soon.....gonna try to pick up a bottle of it as soon as I can get my hands on some.