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Post by dave d. on Sept 7, 2008 17:55:34 GMT -5
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Post by DW on Sept 7, 2008 18:00:54 GMT -5
Dave, I really like what he did with the bushing also, doesn't foul much either. Great guy to deal with also.
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Post by Harley on Sept 7, 2008 18:38:37 GMT -5
I have one, also; coincidentally, I will shoot it for the first time next weekend. It's a beautiful piece of work. I've talked with Pete several times; he asked me a lot of questions about the Savage in an attempt to make a unique part for a rifle he'd never seen. I'd say he did it world-class.
One question: the recess is so deep that I wonder if there is a recommended difference in powder load compared with, say, a standard factory BP. Anyone?
Harley
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Post by richard on Sept 7, 2008 19:09:36 GMT -5
dave d: That is a very nice plug. Is there a reason Savage does not make their plugs out of stainless? Cost maybe?
The bushing........Is it just drill rod that gets hardened? (water hardening rod or oil?)
Thanks
Richard
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Post by dave d. on Sept 7, 2008 19:19:32 GMT -5
:)harley you probably will need to adjust your load alittle but maybe dave could let us know about his.
:)richard they are hardened drill bushings that's all i know.maybe edge could clarify what you are asking.
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Post by DW on Sept 7, 2008 20:06:20 GMT -5
I have one, also; coincidentally, I will shoot it for the first time next weekend. It's a beautiful piece of work. I've talked with Pete several times; he asked me a lot of questions about the Savage in an attempt to make a unique part for a rifle he'd never seen. I'd say he did it world-class. One question: the recess is so deep that I wonder if there is a recommended difference in powder load compared with, say, a standard factory BP. Anyone? Harley Start lower than the loads most are using. In the .50, H4198 was shooting approximately 2375 with 67gr and the 300Rem with the OEM plug. Pete's plug was giving similar velocities with 64gr., the 67gr charge with Pete's plug was was pushing 2450+ with the same bullet. The .45 builds pressure quicker so I would drop the minimum charge weight 4 or 5 grains until you see what kind of speed you get. If you have an OEM plug, maybe try it also to compare velocity with the modified. |
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Post by Kevin B. on Sept 7, 2008 20:15:12 GMT -5
WOW! Nice shop! And great post. I bet he could woop up some vent-liners too!
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Post by CraigF on Sept 7, 2008 20:16:24 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the pictures Dave, DW told me that Pete will make a recessed plug that takes a ventliner, I am thinking about getting one.
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Post by Harley on Sept 7, 2008 21:18:50 GMT -5
CraigF, Pete did a vent liner plug for me by drilling and tapping for an over-sized SS VL of his own design. I haven't shot it, yet, but this is definitely not a VL screw-in replacement for the OEM. I don't know what other design he might make, though.
DW, RB recommends 55 gn H-4198 with the Parker 275 BE; are you suggesting I drop the starting load to 50-51 gns in my .45, using Pete's recessed BP? If so, what is the cut-off muzzle velocity?
Seocnd question, DW: SW has suggested I try 10/51 SR4759/AA 2015 with the Parker. How would you adjust this for Pete's plug, and again, what is the cut-off velocity?
Thanks for your help.
Harley
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Post by tar12 on Sept 7, 2008 21:39:02 GMT -5
WOW! Nice shop! And great post. I bet he could woop up some vent-liners too! ;DYeah, some 500 shot puppies! |
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Post by olegburn on Sept 7, 2008 22:18:41 GMT -5
WOW! Nice shop! And great post. I bet he could woop up some vent-liners too! ;DYeah, some 500 shot puppies! Are they really that durable?  |
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 8, 2008 2:32:54 GMT -5
Not to rain on the parade but I got to throw a word of caution in here.
One of the design features of the factory plug is the volume of space between the vent and the primer. It takes time for the volume to be pressurized. The vent restriction delays the full amount of chamber pressure coming back towards the primer for the milliseconds (or is it nanoseconds) it takes before the pressure drops to safe levels for the 209 primer. If you reduce the volume then the time it takes is also reduced. And now if you go to a slower powder where you have a longer pressure curve you compound the problem. The 209 primer isn't designed for 40,000lbs and I think one variety of the WW 209s are being made from aluminum now. We already see blown primers when vents get a little worn and the volume is reduced by carbon build up. You might say other MLs do it but they deal with half the pressure and break open actions support the primer more. I can understand wanting to get the primer closer to the powder for more consistent ignition to get that tad bit of accuracy but think a minute guys.
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Post by tar12 on Sept 8, 2008 5:26:19 GMT -5
Rossman,
Is there not a primer available that will withstand these forces?
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Post by edge on Sept 8, 2008 7:40:06 GMT -5
If you go back to the first page of this website 251 pages ago you will see that I have been using either a recessed plug or a short plug for at least 4 years!
Generally you will find that the sweet spot for your loads are not exactly the same as with a standard plug, but you should not have any problems with your primers unless you use an oversize vent liner or very high pressure loads!
My rifles are built stronger and use a plug much shorter than the Savage. The sabots that I use do not drill, so I can use powders without regard to the sabot blowing.
My main load when shooting my 50 caliber rifle is 65 grains of N110 and a 195 grain bullet/sabot. I have no problems with bulged sabot with this load.
edge.
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Post by CraigF on Sept 8, 2008 7:47:19 GMT -5
CraigF, Pete did a vent liner plug for me by drilling and tapping for an over-sized SS VL of his own design. I haven't shot it, yet, but this is definitely not a VL screw-in replacement for the OEM. I don't know what other design he might make, though. Harley Harley, I want a BP that has a recessed pocket, like the one in the photo, but uses a vent liner. Edge designed it and has posted CAD drawings of it before, I am very good with the search function to find it though. I believe that Richard made one and is using this design too. |
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Post by edge on Sept 8, 2008 8:17:56 GMT -5
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Post by savagebrother on Sept 8, 2008 11:43:23 GMT -5
i have to agree with rossman40, my ruger no. 1 fully supports the 209 primer with a centerfire breech block. if i push the loads to center fire velocities the 209 end cap will fail and leak at the seam with the cup. i have a standard s.m.i. breech plug which moves the the vent hole much closer i can't achieve neer the velocity with it without blowing primers. i am talking about heavier bullets, 275 b.e.'s and 250 sst's and 200 sst's. edge your always seem to be using very light bullets which gives you the advantage of shorter pressure times in your guns-less pressure at the 209 primer.
sb
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Post by edge on Sept 8, 2008 12:13:46 GMT -5
SNIP edge your always seem to be using very light bullets which gives you the advantage of shorter pressure times in your guns-less pressure at the 209 primer. sb A 250 SST at over 2700 fps is not that light of a load, 250 SST's with 50 + grains of Lil'Gun with a 28 gauge sub base is higher pressure than most any load being used in today's rifles! I shot these loads and I did not have problems for years, except if the vent hole got in the 0.040+ range. You can't compare the SMI plug with a Savage plug! I certainly can't speak for others, but if bursting primers is a common problem with my design then this is the first I have heard about it! Also, if it is a problem then I would be very disappointed with folks that use it and have not warned other folks from converting to it! edge. |
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Post by runningdog on Sept 8, 2008 13:55:55 GMT -5
I received my BP from Pete last week. I shot it Thursday and got my best groups thus far with the Savage. I had planned on using 42 grs of N-110 for my hunting load but with Pete's BP, I got my best groups at 40 and 41 grs. Above this I started losing petals so I'm sure it produces more pressure.  This is two groups 40 gr & 41 gr for 6 rounds. Both loads produced a group total of 1.243 I am very happy with Pete's plugs. |
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Post by richard on Sept 8, 2008 14:13:21 GMT -5
Nice groups runningdog!
Richard
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Post by rossman40 on Sept 8, 2008 14:27:37 GMT -5
I'm not trying to run around and say the sky is falling and such. If nobody pushed the envelope and tried new things we wouldn't get anywhere. I'm just pointing out what could happen and maybe the why when it does.
Edge's and RB's earlier breechplug work that many of us witnessed here was awesome and has influenced others and maybe even other builders. The goal is to get safe, reliable and consistent ignition of the main charge. Consistent ignition means consistent chamber pressures and that gives consistent MV's and that rhymes with accuracy (I've got to watch the The Music Man again). To do that and reduce maintenance is the berries. I think there are merits to the recessed vent that Edge started playing with years ago. I think it may act much like a pre-combustion chamber on some diesel engines but optimum size may be very dependent on the variables (primer, vent orifice size and type of powder) and then you may be adding length (time) to the train.
You could very well come up with a design that is optimal for a certain set of variables and none/few others or limits as SB has seen. Face it while the OEM design may not be the best but it safely gives somewhat uniform performance regardless of the variables and for the manufacturer ease of manufacturing to reduce cost. Is there a better mouse trap out there? Could be and I do not want to discourage anybody from trying to find it.
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Post by DW on Sept 8, 2008 14:32:32 GMT -5
Good shooting Glen, looks like you got that thing figured out now.
The book powders don't pick up as much speed as the slower powders in my experiences as well.
In my experiences with the RB modified plugs I have never bulged or had a primer stick. I have pushed loads to the point of sabot failure but still never bulged a primer. The plugs RB modified don't have the primer as close to the bushing as Pete's plug, but there is a guy on here who has a RB plug where the bushing is close to the primer like the ones Pete is making. He doesn't have any problems with bulged or stuck primers shooting the ever so popular N120/BO combo or book powders with the 250SST. If the headspace is off and a person is getting bulged primers then I think this plug will compound the problem.
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Post by runningdog on Sept 8, 2008 14:56:32 GMT -5
My N-120 should arrive today and I just got my BO's last week so I am now ready to try those loads.
Pete's BP: The Federal 209's fit really tight. The WW fit perfect-open and fall right out. I also got less Blowback than any other BP I have tried (One factory and One RB modified).
I did notice a very pitted bottom on my shot sabots but otherwise all petals on the lower loads.
I also would like to thank Edge and Richard for the barrel cooler. These groups were shot between 82 and 90 degrees.
The question now is how long will the BP sleeve last. I plan to check it after every range session.
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Post by DW on Sept 8, 2008 15:03:26 GMT -5
The first RB plug, IIRC went to the 350 shot count before any erosion appeared. I would say this bushing will give similar if not better results from early testing.
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Post by 1SHOT1KILL on Sept 8, 2008 16:57:20 GMT -5
The main reason, per Charles Hodgdon, Savage uses 4140CM and not 416 SS for the breech plug, is because SS on SS can gall and seize, but 4140 on 4140 or 4140 on SS will not.
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Post by savagebrother on Sept 8, 2008 17:10:36 GMT -5
edge i think you use top notch parts and use the best materials so that you didnt have a problem doesnt surprise me, also you use slower powders or duplex which helps tremendously. i have taken 200 sst's to 3300 fps with bench mark, and 275 b.e.'s to 3100 fps sabotless with 3031. no blown primers with my vent screw liner breech plug. now as a side note you are right about the s.m.i. breech plug because mine is over 3 years old and is an earlier version with a larger flash hole. i think you guys should try the brass 209 size rifle primer holders in these short breech plugs see what happens.
sb
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Post by edge on Sept 8, 2008 17:14:43 GMT -5
The main reason, per Charles Hodgdon, Savage uses 4140CM and not 416 SS for the breech plug, is because SS on SS can gall and seize, but 4140 on 4140 or 4140 on SS will not. 1SHOT1KILL, I was asked that exact question in a PM today! While I agree that it CAN gall under load, there are two things that IMO would say that it won't. 1st, this is not a "bolt stretch" circumstance. To gall a SS on SS would need a large amount of torque to be applied; 2nd, most of not all people use lube. If an anti-seize is used then it would be near impossible to gall the plug. Also, the nature of the operation tends to add carbon to the surfaces which will act a a lube. Now certainly in a highly torqued application I would stretch the bolt instead of screw tightening to prevent galling. edge. |
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Post by 1SHOT1KILL on Sept 8, 2008 19:26:15 GMT -5
I tend to agree with Edge, in that there is probably no way possibe to torque a SS plug enough to gall one, but with a 4140CM plug you've eliminate any possibility of galling one.
That SS plug is one good looking plug.
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