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Post by E.T. on Jan 10, 2009 10:04:32 GMT -5
Originally when I joined this board the main topic was of course the 10ML-II until the inception of the 45 and 40cal made its appearance. Then new doors flung open with new loads and approach to muzzle loading. At first I thought that was great, as muzzle loading was taken a large stride forward. Then many who had 50cal moved into the 45 & 40 arena to experience what these new calibers with quality barrels had to offer. Hope I am wrong but also began to detect some dissention appearing from all the praise the 45 & 40 received over the factory 50cal provided by Savage. I believe others here have noticed that too and have attempted to downplay this dissention that was appearing. I applaud their efforts in trying to maintain unity that gives any group strength as a whole but if this suspected dissention continues gaining any momentum then the only recourse might be 2-separate boards for smokeless muzzle-loading. I truly hope it never comes to that.
To the prospect of newcomers with 10ML-II’s appearing I hope you are not intimidated by this what I refer to new growing pains for advancement with smokeless muzzle loading in different calibers. I personally enjoy following this advancement myself and exchanging a little humorous poking with a few individuals along the way.
For the new 10ML-II owners make no mistake of what you now possess in a muzzleloader and its hunting capabilities. The only catch here is a learning curve to get the very best from what you own. If you strongly believe of going to an aftermarket barrel in another caliber right away then I say go for it and good luck. Most all the groundwork from pioneering individuals has been basically covered with viable loads that are producing exceptional results. But also keep in mind that these individuals from their learning curve know the weak areas of the 10ML-II and not just the barrel with its current bore roughness that also contributes to any quality shooting capabilities.
So for any newcomers here, “Welcome to the World of Smokeless Muzzle Loading”. Pick the path you want to choose and enjoy what this Board and knowledgeable members have to offer leading in that direction. And don’t be surprised with making some great new friends along the way.
Ed
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Post by clintsfolly on Jan 10, 2009 10:26:38 GMT -5
well said ET still luv my 50 clint
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Post by deadeye on Jan 10, 2009 11:23:27 GMT -5
we are all cranky right now & have a right to be,deer season is over
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Johnc
Six pointer
Posts: 81
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Post by Johnc on Jan 10, 2009 11:27:00 GMT -5
I really did have mixed feelings but not anymore. If another couple calibers are added, sorting through things will be really annoying and confusing. I would like to see calibers and optics separated. Oh, by the way, I really do like this board> John
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Post by SW on Jan 10, 2009 11:42:57 GMT -5
:)When people get to know each other, they can kid and poke fun at each other in a way that an outsider might get the wrong impression. That could happen here at times. Also, some people can easily get fired up and say things a little harsher than they feel(except for the moment), while others don't get moved much one way or the other( maybe we are just slow, like me, don't care that much, like me, etc). I never mean to be offensive to anyone except a bully or a pretentious "know it all" and then I have to try to control myself. I do not believe there are any of those people on this board. I took Tar 12's comment as in jest and hope it was, at least somewhat. Being Naive is sometimes beneficial , and I have plenty of that. People who went to the Sav 10ML/ML-2 are in the forefront of MLing. It is only natural that they continue exploring, getting excited about their new "finds", etc. If we were a group of traditionalists, many of us would still be shooting our Belgium made 45 cal MLers that came out of the trunk of Turner Kirtland's car in the 60s. This board seems to me to be about advancing MLers in the 21st century. So much load development has been done with the 50 that it is only natural that more attention will now be placed on the more recent caliber offerings. Between us, 100,000's of shots have been made with the Sav 50 cal. We do have some rather decent loads. Some are even single powder loads . I think there is room for all on one board.
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Post by SW on Jan 10, 2009 11:45:23 GMT -5
we are all cranky right now & have a right to be,deer season is over Yesterday evening, right at dark, last deer - Parker Saf Mag #175 3-blade Rage. It's over - coyotes now.
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Post by DW on Jan 10, 2009 12:44:57 GMT -5
This is a good subject ET. I feel there is room for both, OEM and replacement barreled guns, but the overload of load info for the multiple calibers may be a bit much for a newbie. I will also add that if I was a newbie and I was having problems getting my gun to shoot, after plunking down 6-700 bucks, the last thing I would want to read is someone pushing another barrel, insinuating that my gun was not of "the right stuff", .40 and .45 cal comments should be reserved for .40 & .45 threads, to bring a 40 or 45 cal into a 50 thread is pointless and does not help solve the problem., well it could, but you all know what I mean. The only time multiple calibers need mentioned in the same thread is during discussions of each calibers strengths and weaknesses versus each other.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 10, 2009 12:59:06 GMT -5
How can information be harmful, 50 caliber is 50 caliber 40 is 40 is 45 is 45 In my 8 plus years shooting the Savage, I have had many teacher, first Toby Bridges, remember when he was the last word on the Savage, "not my words but, the Savage Tech Department" then Rick Bibby, who not only made my rifle, but gave me answers to all my silly questions, I have Egde, Steve and Smokeeter, for their help and advice, In Edge and Smokeeter case for the bullets they sent me to try. I'm sure this help in available to all who ask, In my case while I know little, I would be happy to share with any member of this board, so I say left the info flow, "its all good"
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Post by jkruger on Jan 10, 2009 13:07:45 GMT -5
As a newb , I'm pretty thrilled w/ my purchase still. It was a little overwhelming reading some of the 45/40 cal stuff and still not having a clue. It has'nt turned me off or anything. I still feel that I've made a good choice, and am excited about the challenges that lie ahead w/ load development. there is alot to look forward to and I think I'm ahead of the pack of bs'ed who still believe in the 3 pellet mag load smoke maker. jk
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Post by edge on Jan 10, 2009 13:09:21 GMT -5
E.T. you are right on a lot of points I swapped out barrels after many many thousands of shots in my OEM barrel. When I replaced it with my first custom barrel I submitted the OEM barrel to magnetic particle inspection and found zero flaws! Oh, by the way the first premium barrel that I bought was another 50 caliber made by Krieger... my only mistake was with the twist Had I not paid extra for a custom twist I don't know that I would be shooting a 45 right now! edge.
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Post by jkruger on Jan 10, 2009 13:09:24 GMT -5
By the way ET thanks for being concerned for us greenhorns of the 10ml-II.
jk
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 10, 2009 14:34:50 GMT -5
Well, I'm still a greenhorn. Plus, I'm a "Plain Jane" advocate. But.....you guys have to think about one thing, that's not being discussed here...... There are those of us who A) have a nice, long traditional modern gun deer season, and probably another archery season, and our ML season is some kind of 'added extra' that is a week or two weeks or a few days........and there are ALSO those of us who B) live in uncivilized states where "Modern Gun" is at best a shotgun with a scope, or a ML, or maybe they live in a civilized state but in an uncivilized part of it (like SW) that has a short deer season and no MG allowed!!! I'm an A, and thus I am 100% satisfied with a 250 yard rifle that I don't have to clean every often. But if'n I was a B, I can tell you that nothing would satisfy me, that I'd be fine-tuning my Savage every five minutes if I thought I could tweak one more FPS or Ft-Lb out of her. I'd change barrels like I change socks, if I had to. I'd read this board EVERY DAY (well I do that already, but I'd actually pay attention and take notes!! . I see a HUGE difference. And I get a lot out of both guys' opinions and comments. And I like to kid around and jest and poke fun and I expect to receive my share. I'm really a sensitive guy and get my feelings hurt easily *sniff, sniff** but I like to throw testosterone around as much as anyone. My feelings are MY feelings. You can't hurt them, I can only allow them to be hurt. It's my choice, not yours. There are (count 'em) TWENTY SIX "Forums" on this Board. There is only one for "Savage ML'ing". It wouldn't bother me if that stayed, and it wouldn't bother me if it was split into "Traditional Savage Muzzleloading" and "Cutting Edge Savage Muzzleloading". Or maybe "Smokeless Muzzleloading" instead of "Savage". Or whatever. Or not. Just keep writing. OK?
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 10, 2009 14:42:02 GMT -5
From a "newbie" point of view it is rather discouraging to go out and spend what you can finally afford..or justify..what ever you want to call it.. Buy the accessories that we read we need from this board..and maybe a couple other's... Then to read here that I just bought "inferior" equipment....From what I read here I gather Savage doesn't know very much about their product...Cause to read here The new Rifle I just purchased...And the one I talked my son into are dinousor's.... I know there are extremist's in every sport and league. But not everybody wants to or can afford to go out and drop another several hundred dollar's on their gun... to tighten up the group's . This attitude that is projected by some " If it isn't a highly modified "to my standard's" rifle then it is only worthy of ridicule...Will make me pull away from this board as fast as I found it... I really don't want to hear about highly modified target type rifle's... Last I looked this was a Savage message board.Thanks all.. And remember us newbie's And Im not so sure I wouldnt mind a split like mentioned ahead of me...Thanks all Drop
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Post by whyohe on Jan 10, 2009 15:50:03 GMT -5
to all newbies, if you get over whelmed by all the "newest and greatest" in this savage board just sit back and take the info from the tips and hints and post your questions. don't worry about the "new " barrel and calibers and the posts on them right now. we fortunately have some very smart and progressive thinkers here that can advance the gun. one thing you need to take into consideration is you will normally hear "bad" things or problems alot here cause that is what the board was here to do. it is here to help and figure things out so it is only natural that you will hear more of problems than good. i happen to have 2 STOCK MLIIs that shoot excellent. one is a SS laminate and the other is a blued composite. i had little problems but found my answers here. please don't get discouraged or feel you got an inferior product. it just takes time and getting the FACTORY load your gun likes and then you can go to other loads if you like.
E.T. sorry i really didnt notice the decention, probably cause i just dont pay much attention to the 40 & 45 caliber threads. i think it is just because its new and they are shooting so nice the owners are just elated about what the have. i hope there isnt any decention though.
P.S. dead eye nice dog LOL!
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Post by ozark on Jan 10, 2009 16:12:30 GMT -5
Personally I think a change is in order to seperate the original Savage from the converted Savages. I class the converted Savages as all those that have had a different caliber barrel installed. My opinion is that by seperating the two the reader could choose to educate themselves in their special area of interest. If desired in both. SAVAGE WILDCATS might be a section to cover non original rifle. I don't see those who have developed new interests as tratiors. Before becoming a tratior for which most connect the name Benedict Arnold with, the man was an American hero, perhaps the most effective American battlefield warrior and leader of that war.. He was an effective Army General praised by Washington as well as the enemy as Americas Hannibal. The folks that have got into a different type of muzzle loader are there because they needed a new area to ignite a spark of enthusiasm. It doesn't change their character or make them better people or worse. People like Edge, RB, SW and others know the original as well or better than anyone on Dougs forum. They will answer questions for new owners willingly. But their main interest isn't in what they have learned in the past but what is exciting and could be just over the next hill. I learned a lot about the Savage and in a few cases I can give sound advice about it. But today I don't even own a ML. That doesn't erase the knowledge I gathered while I did. JMHO, Ozark
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 10, 2009 17:01:43 GMT -5
Outstanding Ozark!
Guys, do NOT feel like the 'cutting edge' folks are telling you that you product is inferior. And even if you DO feel that way, forget it. I'm telling you that it is NOT inferior. I'm telling you that the stock Savage MLII is so superior to anything else you could buy, that there is 2nd place. It is not a dinosaur. If it is, I love dinosaurs.
They are not ridiculing my gun! But if they are, then they do so at their peril. I'll be happy to shoot against any of 'em, at any distance, with anything at stake. How about them apples? I'll betcha my dinosaur named Betsy can spit fire with any of their newfangled dragons! I'll take on all comers.
You should feel the same way. You have a WOO HOO fancy, high falutin, wowzer of a ML, and you should never let anyone tell you otherwise!
But man, do NOT begrudge those who can afford to take those steps, and know how to do it!! Please! From this comes innovation, and some day down the road some "newbie" is gonna be buying a stock .45 or whatever, simply because someone blazed a trail to get there.
Not only that, but the 'cutting edge' folks went through the "dinosaurs" to get to where they are and they know all about them. Just two days ago, one of the 'cutting edge' folks called me on the phone and talked me through a simple (to him) maneuver to fix my plain jane ML. He knew how because he'd been there, done that. Don't begrudge that just because you can't afford it (I can't either). Let them experiment. Learn from it. Soak it in, for gosh sakes.
There's no such thing as too much knowledge and for SURE no such thing as too much wisdom.
If you feel like you've made a mistake and folks here are looking down on you because you don't change barrels, you are mistaken. You have not made a mistake, and I have not made a mistake, and folks here are NOT looking down their nose at me. But to be honest, if they were, it'd be THEIR nose and I could care less, so long as I learn what I need to make MY Plain Jane ML work as well as it can. I have gotten to where I am because of these guys, and I can't thank them enough.
Learn to learn from everyone, and learn to appreciate whatever nuggets you find.
Bill
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Post by jkruger on Jan 10, 2009 18:53:03 GMT -5
good insight buckrub.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 10, 2009 21:04:14 GMT -5
Ask your own questions. Do your own testing. Don't read threads that may not be applicable to you. Don't ask questions that you won't like the answers. If someone gets under your skin, stop reading their posts.
Yeah...right!
Everyone....get over your frustrations and deal with the diversity here. It's not that big a deal. We are all grown ups.
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Post by PPosey on Jan 11, 2009 11:01:59 GMT -5
Dats a fact... most people get insulted wayyyy to easy. Lotsa good stuff here
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Post by pointman on Jan 11, 2009 11:27:03 GMT -5
Being from Ohio, I am limited to shotguns and mz's. I purchased the Savage to hunt with and extend my range without having to have exact yardages each time I shoot at an animal. With either of my Savages ( SS Laminated, and Blue Composite) I have done just that. I have also eliminated the excessive cleaning required of BP guns. I now feel that my range has been extended to 200 yards easy while feeling very confident that I will make a clean and ethical kill given I do my part. I do not feel that I have an inferior product, especially when I compare it to my other options here in Ohio.
With shotguns and BP muzzlelaoders I felt uneasy taking any shot beyond 125 yards and thus did not do it.
I shoot some in the fall to try a couple of new loads and to establish the loads that I will hunt with. I do not shoot 1'" groups on a regular basis, but am extremely excited when I do.
I believe now that I have the flatest, most accurate, and legal deer hunting gun that Ohio allows. Could I extend my range some more with a 40 or 45 caliber conversion, maybe/probably and some day might. Right now I am very satisfied with what I have.
I greatly appreciate all of the information and support I have received from each of you on this board. I also enjoy reading about all of the new stuff people are trying including the 40 and 45 stuff.
My concern with creating separate places for these, is that I might miss out on something by not clicking on a separate link.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 11, 2009 11:49:31 GMT -5
Learn to learn from everyone, and learn to appreciate whatever nuggets you find. Even the Butt-Nugget's...Sorry I just couldnt resist... Drop
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Post by youp50 on Jan 11, 2009 11:57:22 GMT -5
I know when I got my ML there was plenty of help here.
i think there is still plenty of help here for .50 shooters. Hardly a week goes by without one or another professed 'newbie' asking and maybe re-asking the same questions over again. I think most get good answers and I am sure that all are treated with respect. A personal belief of mine is the only really stupid question is "Why didn't I ask someone about this?"
I can see how some could come to the board and not understanding the past posts become overwhelmed. Take a time out. Realize you have a good firearm. Same goes for the man that buys ANY factory firearm. Steel, bullets, powders are all at an all time best in quality. Factory firearms have never been this good. That does not mean you can expect to compete off the bench with a 700 Remington 30-06. There are high dollar custom rifles in all flavors. Would I like one? Sure. Do I want the payment book? No.
There are no degrees of dead. A factory load through the chest will be just as dead as one shot through the heart with Edge's New Jersey Special.
To anyone who is new to this board, Savage 10 ML's and perhaps computer boards in general. Feel free to ask any question. The only thing is please be nice ... especially to the goat we will be needing him again ;D
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Post by ozark on Jan 11, 2009 12:28:52 GMT -5
For tarntions sake, why doesn't someone give us the biography of the goat. I checked google but nothing relating to the Savage was found under G O A T. I am somewhat inclined to feel left out and made to wonder if others are not superior to myself. When I was a youngster and someone done something that left you speechless they claimed that they had got your goat. If this is something that needs hiding from the ladies then I will laugh and pretend that I am in on the secret. Ha Ha, My goat thinks its a dog. Ozark
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Post by broomebuck on Jan 11, 2009 12:32:03 GMT -5
being from my part of ny state pumpkin ball aka 12ga slug is all i was brought up on. then ten years ago i bougth my first ml fell in love with the accuracy but messy stinky cleaning every other shot. then i joined this board bought my first savage read this board over a over again and all i can say is wow i love my savage 10ml one deer and two coyotes under its belt. the last yote was ranged at 235 yards it would have been a pipe dream with the 12ga so to all the new guys really take the time to learn this is the best ml i have ever shot.THE HELP ON THIS BOARD IS ENDLESS TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.THANKS ROCCO
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Post by thelefthand on Jan 11, 2009 21:24:11 GMT -5
I think I can understand both view points on this. The bottom line from my point of view goes something like this. If I have a problem or question, who do I want to go ask it from? Generally I want to ask it from the most knowlegeable guys/gals around. With respect to the Savage ML, that's right here on this board. If I have a question on high power match rifles, I call/e-mail guys who build some of the best match rifles in the country, or those who shoot some of the highest scores. Just because they build "match rifles" doesn't mean for a minute that I wouldn't call them and ask a question about my "service rifle." Same goes for this sight. I'd have to be insane to think that those who have extensive knowledge of the stock Savage ML just stopped and settled for what they had. Their drive for getting the most out of a ML is what made them into such good sources of information. Send them somewhere else to play, and you will loose a good portion (but not all) of that resource. Keep in mind that they aren't getting paid to learn any of this stuff.
As far as a new person feeling like they had just bought junk, I find that hard to believe. I have never once read in a post on this board where any member had anything negative to say about the stock savage in comparison to any other brand of ML on the market. All of the 40 and 45 cal shooting "Pros" on here are extremely happy to help a new member get their rig up and running with out dumping any extra $$ into it without reason. I can't count the times that folks have said "I'd shoot it like it is and see what it will do first." If that's not sound advise, I don't know what is. Any factory produced firearm out there can be modified and tricked out to the point that it's no longer comparable to the original stock gun. Heck, I LOVE my Kimber 1911, but I still drool over some of the Glocks and XDs and other 1911s that have been all tricked out. It doesn't leave me feeling like my stock gun is in any way inadequate though. That's just the way life is. If you walk into a room full of very knowlegable and proficient "gun nuts" you should expect them to be able to knock your socks off with what they are building and doing, but that shouldn't stop you from asking questions about what you have.
For the record, I shoot a stock Savage with a custom stock and a paint job, and I probably always will. It suits my budget and my needs. Any "extra play money" gets set aside for long range centerfire stuff or reloading components. I rarely if ever read posts about 40 and 45 cal barrels. I just don't care about them, but I'm sure glad that guys who have them can come here, share info, and ask their questions just like me.
Just my 2 bits, Mark
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Post by dans on Jan 11, 2009 22:07:57 GMT -5
Yikes, I am taken back by the idea of posting by caliber or modifications. Now I have a 10 ml module gun that is not bedded, a 50 stainless synthetic that has been 3rd pillered, bedded, a 50 mlII that has been put into a custom thumbhole stock and bedded, a 45 pac nor in a bedded laminated stock, a 45 SMI heavy barrel on a 20 ga. ultra slugster platform, and a 50 cal SMI on a standard shot gun platform . Now I really like the the idea of going to one forum, and posting about the gun I happen to be shooting/working with at the time. My first savage mz was the blue synthetic module gun. I shot a 3/4 inch group with it at 100 yards with 5744 and 300 grain Hornady XTp. I was one happy gun owner. I reallly have no "need" for any of the others but I enjoy shooting and experimenting with them. If time permits I will take a deer or something with each of them. My next project will probably be a 50 pac nor just because I want to see how it shoots. Some people are never satisfied with what they have and are always wanting something new. That would be me. Hunting and gun experimenting are all I do. Well I do fish once in a while. But most of the time I am shooting guns. That's what I like to do. If the savage mz was just a tool to harvest game with for me I would only own one because the first one was plenty good enough. OK enough. I have to go count my barrel money.
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rexxer
Eight Pointer
Posts: 184
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Post by rexxer on Jan 11, 2009 22:29:39 GMT -5
Yikes, I am taken back by the idea of posting by caliber or modifications. Now I have a 10 ml module gun that is not bedded, a 50 stainless synthetic that has been 3rd pillered, bedded, a 50 mlII that has been put into a custom thumbhole stock and bedded, a 45 pac nor in a bedded laminated stock, a 45 SMI heavy barrel on a 20 ga. ultra slugster platform, and a 50 cal SMI on a standard shot gun platform Your one lucky man!!!
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Panhandle
Eight Pointer
They're Coming Back
Posts: 226
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Post by Panhandle on Jan 11, 2009 22:54:20 GMT -5
Yikes, I am taken back by the idea of posting by caliber or modifications. Now I have a 10 ml module gun that is not bedded, a 50 stainless synthetic that has been 3rd pillered, bedded, a 50 mlII that has been put into a custom thumbhole stock and bedded, a 45 pac nor in a bedded laminated stock, a 45 SMI heavy barrel on a 20 ga. ultra slugster platform, and a 50 cal SMI on a standard shot gun platform . Now I really like the the idea of going to one forum, and posting about the gun I happen to be shooting/working with at the time. My first savage mz was the blue synthetic module gun. I shot a 3/4 inch group with it at 100 yards with 5744 and 300 grain Hornady XTp. I was one happy gun owner. I reallly have no "need" for any of the others but I enjoy shooting and experimenting with them. If time permits I will take a deer or something with each of them. My next project will probably be a 50 pac nor just because I want to see how it shoots. Some people are never satisfied with what they have and are always wanting something new. That would be me. Hunting and gun experimenting are all I do. Well I do fish once in a while. But most of the time I am shooting guns. That's what I like to do. If the savage mz was just a tool to harvest game with for me I would only own one because the first one was plenty good enough. OK enough. I have to go count my barrel money. Are you married? ?
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Post by dans on Jan 11, 2009 23:25:32 GMT -5
Ok guys I understand the nature of the questions. I am lucky and I am married and I have no other vices. I don't play golf, cards, bowl, or have any other hobbies. I operate on the premise that there is nothing that is too good for my wife. So I save up my mad money and spend it on my obsession. But I don't tell the little woman that the 49th Vera Bradley handbag is one too many either. She has her collection and I have mine. The four kids are all out of the nest and my 10 grandkids will all get a gun from granddad an old family tradition. I have more guns than many gunshops and many more than I need but only half as many as I want!
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 12, 2009 5:43:43 GMT -5
dans, sounds like eberything is under control. You are now my idol. ;D
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