The Traditional board

[Douglas Blair]

"This forum is for discussing all aspects of Traditional muzzleloading".

This is posted at the top of this board and just what does it mean? It means sidelocks, underhammers and in my mind any muzzleloader which you would have found prior to the modern inline was made. Some may say any muzzleloader could be called traditional, but I think a traditional muzzleloader is one which looks like a gun in which Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett would have carried not to mention the mountain men. So let's keep it focused on these guns, the clothing they would have worn ect.

[chuck]

great, I have nothing against inlines, just have no interest in them and loose interest even quicker reading about them. Kinda get tired of sifting through the posts on a trad. board to actually find something about a side lock, and eventually find myself going elsewhere. chuck-ia

[tg]

"There's also a minor psycho contingency out there. "

Is the pot calling the kettle black? Couldn't resist, for those who do not know what it is about it doesn't matter, for those who do there is no malice intended just what I see as a humorus bit of irony that has to do with the definition of "traditional"

[Triple Se7en]

tg

No need to throw darts at the subs. It sure would be a boring country if everyone wore the same clothes - everyone farmed for money - everyone was the same race - everyone used blackpowder & flints.

Most of us are still looking for the definition of muzzleloader togetherness. Sorta like when I may pass you on a deer trail & I admire your Goex-fouled Jaeger & you admire my 777-fouled Omega.

Peace to all MLers.

[Douglas Blair]

I also think we need to find a middle ground and in some way come to an understanding we all are shooting muzzleloaders no matter which we choose to use. I also think traditional shooters are a great bunch of folks and I also like a flintlock and hunt with one every year. I have killed as many (if not more) deer with a flinter than a caplock or a modern gun of any sort. But to say a flintlock is boring tells me you have never shot one or haven't taken the time to get to know one. There is nothing boring about a flinter but does put the hunt back into the hunt.

[Bayouman]

But to say a flintlock is boring tells me you have never shot one or haven't taken the time to get to know one. There is nothing boring about a flinter but does put the hunt back into the hunt

Yep Doug, if such gets boring...just plant me. ;D

[Douglas Blair]

Amen Bayouman.

But what never ceases to amaze me is the shooting matches which happens time and time again between traditional shooters and modern shooters. The traditional shooters shoot with only open sights and the modern shooters are allowed to use scopes, and modern bullets, sub powders ect. And 9 times out of 10 the traditional shooters win!! I am not trying to take anything away from the modern shooters but this happens and has happened over and over again.

[tg]

"I also think we need to find a middle ground and in some way come to an understanding we all are shooting muzzleloaders no matter which we choose to use. "

Yes Doug, and that could be extended to incude cartridge guns old and new, The issue seems to be that when a forum is set up for the disscussion of one type only, that the selectivity of the forum is not respected by many, and let's not get into defining "traditional" as being whatever one thinks it is, or the spirit thing, there are some pretty well accepted guidlines that most who have been at this for long use to define the term, and logic, common sense, and putting aside the modern type stuff where possible/practical is a very simple litmus test.

[Douglas Blair]

Trapper thanks for your response.

I am going to get this board back to at LEAST semi traditional even if it kills me. I am going to start deleting posts which are not traditional or start moving them to the modern forum.

Common sense is the only tool which we need to really know the difference between traditional and modern. If the base of the bullet has a chunk of plastic hanging onto it you can bet your best bottle of scotch is is a modern bullet. Adjustable sights are not traditional but most of the semi-traditional guns come with them, so this is one thing I will tolerate here because of that fact.

Pyrodex, or any of the sub powders, inlines, or any of the other modern stuff will be deleted of moved off this forum.

[Predator II]

Doug. you have hit the nail on the head. I guess there could be semi-traditional guns. Again it is what the rules makers decide. I have a Southern Mountain rifle with fixed sights that looks traditional. In my club it is patched round ball. open sights, and black powder only. Guys step up to the line with anything that will shoot. No body gets too excited if an inliner is next to a flinter. or an underhammer, or mule ear etc. However this is your board. You make the rules and everybody can abide by them. Is it contagious or does every muzzleloader shooter get the itch for a flinter? I get bit by the bug every once in a while usually at Friendship and have to force myself to quit staring at all the pretty rifles. I know it is addictive.

[BPHOUND]

There's also a minor psycho contingency out there.
TG,
I know who your quoting there.I think he typed that with a mirror held in front of his face.

[Douglas Blair]

Predator II, the Southern Mountain Rifle is traditional and a beautiful gun to boot. That is about as traditional as some of us can afford to get, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Which barrel do you have on yours? I think most use a Longhammok barrel which shoots like a dream.

[tg]

""This forum is for discussing all aspects of Traditional muzzleloading"

This may be a bit vague for many when deciding what is or is not proper topic material Doug, it may serve the board well to post a more descriptive definition of what is considered "traditional" around here so folks can avoid posting about things that do not fit and possibly avoid "issues" from the start???

[harryo]

tg said:

The issue seems to be that when a forum is set up for the disscussion of one type only, that the selectivity of the forum is not respected by many

I agree that this is the biggest problem. If someone chooses to shoot modern inlines, that is their choice, but they shouldn't expect to post on this board, expressing why that should be everyone's choice. I wouldn't go into my neighbors house and even suggest that that he paints all his walls, or changes his furniture, because I don't like it.

[harryo]

Douglas said:

Amen Bayouman.

But what never ceases to amaze me is the shooting matches which happens time and time again between traditional shooters and modern shooters. The traditional shooters shoot with only open sights and the modern shooters are allowed to use scopes, and modern bullets, sub powders ect. And 9 times out of 10 the traditional shooters win!! I am not trying to take anything away from the modern shooters but this happens and has happened over and over again.

This is probably because many modern shooters only consider their guns to be hunting tools and only shoot them for hunting or load development. Most traditional shooters I know shoot their guns year round, for pure enjoyment, and happen to hunt with them. They know their guns much better than the average modern shooter.

[tg]

I still contend that the big problem with "crossover" posts is the mindset that anything other than "inlines'' is traditional, or a very low bar is in place so to speak, the tendency is to stretch the definition to include as many guns/people as possible and this automaticaly creates a situation where conflict due to the diverse level of knowledge, commitment and interest is a given.

[BPHOUND]

TG,
I see that you are having a problem finding that one site that is truly PC Traditional.I'm not really sure if your gonna be able to find it.
If my memory serves me you helped me out a few years back with some advice on a particular problem.I can't remember what it was now.
Anyway I wanted to wish you luck and I hope you actually find what it is you are lookin for.

[tg]

I'm not really "looking" just obsering what is...or I should say, isn't out there and contemplating why.

[Triple Se7en]

You can stop contemplating tg!

Very little outdoor store interest these days in flintlocks/cartridge & Springfield/Zoave/Jaeger-1850s type MLs. Can't be much interest in percussion sidelocks either. Proof in the pudding is CVA dropping out of the sidelock mix & drastic drop in retail sales with Traditions & T/C sidelocks too.

Could be why there are only a few traditional forums... at least one with declining memberships.

[BPHOUND]

Triple7,
I know he isn't looking for anything CVA or T/C to be traditional.And to the contrary,Traditional Style muzzleloading is live and well in North America.
TG is a PC perfectionist with the old ways and expects Traditional forums to be totally PC with no exceptions.
I appreciate his way of thinking but I think he needs to be more tolerable in his ways.
Just my Opinion
Regards BP Hound

[Triple Se7en]

I just used T/C & the rest as a measurement of "old style ML popularity. When you state that traditional clubs show no sign of wane, that is opposite of replica rifle cash register activity in outdoor stores & specialty shops across major cities of this country. Common discussion at big places like Dixie & Cabelas contains words from prospective replica gun buyers that state...
"Not exactly what I want - being forced to buy it here because my mega town gun store discontinued many old models & the ma & pop gunshop owner died & the state won't transfer his trade license to a new buyer (or) there is no interest from anyone to reopen the place"

[tg]

I would think that the true traditional type guns , semi custom, TOW kits and such are probably sold in greater nimbers than before, the department store type guns have given way to the new stuff but that was never the market place for the traditional shooters/hunters anyway.

[Douglas Blair]

I think you have two different types of shooters. The traditional shooter who wants to shoot in the traditional way and then you have the modern shooter who is only interested in having more time in the woods.

I think if there wasn't a special season for muzzleloader hunters then the modern inline would have never been invented or at least not to the magnitude it is now.

Some may argue the inline is more accurate, easier to load, and easier to clean. I say bunk to all three. The traditional guns are more "user friendly" than any inline.

[tg]

I've seen some TC's with after market sights and finish that would fit right in during the late fur trade era and the old CVA Mt. rifle and Kentuckies were pretty close as well, most had shorter barrrels than the originals but they would probably not get a second look 200 years ago, one of my favorite guns I ever owned was a Navy arms "Kentucky" caplock which could pass easily for a late ML period (not 1898 (vbg) gun), so there are many factory guns which are or could be pretty traditional looking in my view.

[BPHOUND]

TG you said... Kentuckies were pretty close as well,
In you last post.
Well what is it?Do you want things that are pretty close or things that are PC?
Tell us.

[tg]

I think you can have a gun that is close in appearance and function to the originals but not a "replica", and can have a period correct gun that is not a "replica" but has the style and traits common to a particular period of history, you could take an original Dickert gun and add a 4x scope and shoot plastic saboted pistol bullets and it would not be a traditional outfit, while a factory gun in the general style of a 1800 flintlock with period type sights and projectiles would be a traditional outfit..seems pretty simple if you let it be?

[beekeeper050]

Here in Pa.( the birth place of Daniel Boone) The traditional muzzle loader is a:Flintlock ignition, single-barrel long guns manufactured prior to 1800. OR a similar reproduction of an original muzzleloading single- barrel long gun,using an iron, open "V" or notched sight and shooting a "patched round lead ball.
I have one in 50 cal.ball. and had a great time taking over 20 deer with it. Now thats hunting !!!

[petev]

I've just read all the posts in this section, and noticed some observations that concur with what I've noticed recently. Namely, I swithced from a traditional T/C .50 cal. purchased in 1974, and hunted with since the first ml season in 1982 in N.Y., to a Savage MLII. I have had problems with the ML such as being very hard to load with the factory supplied bullets, to accuracy wandering all over the paper at times at 90 yards, to hearing first hand accounts of SST bullets allowing deer to run away and not be recovered. The ML board reads like a series of scientific investigations. But I remember how surprised new shooters were that the patched round ball were so accurate! And kids found after some trepidation that these guns have little kick. And it all worked with simple ingredients- lead ball, patch, Crisco. Deer seemed to be knocked down and killed quickly. The main reason I swithed to an inline was that I can no longer see reliably in dim woods deer without a scope. I wonder if I would have been better off putting a scope on a Hawken. The only reason I see in having the long range of an inline, is if someone is hunting in farm country, or hunting species out of the Great Plains. I like this hobby to be fun, including being as simple as is reasonably possible, but such does not seem to be the case with inlines. T/C cutting back on their models of traditional guns is disconcerting.

[rangerlord]

I need help with my traditional Hawkens .50 cal. I was cleaning it and the brush broke off inside the barrel. I was trying to take it apart. I saw that in the back of the barrel it looks like there is a piece that screws out. I am afraid to go any further in fear of breaking it. I have searched for a manual and have had no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Semisane]

Hey RANGERLORD, you didn't idlentify the manufacturer of your Hawken, but it's usually not recommended trying to remove the breech plug unless you really know what you're doing.

The best way to remove a detached brush from the barrel is with a thin walled metal tube. Gete an aluminum, copper, or brass tube that just barely fits into the barrel. Push it down over the brush with a screwing motion so that the brush becomes encased in the tube, then pull the whole works out. Hardware stores usually have 36" aluminum tubes that will work.