|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 2, 2008 1:03:35 GMT -5
8-)Most of you realize the title of this post is less of a joke than I'd like it to be. However my personal problems aside I'm referring to help with a smokeless rifle.
In particular I'd like some of you to make some measurement that may help with load development in 45 and 40 caliber. Here's the things I need 1 The caliber and bullet 2 The charge weight in grains. Those were the easy ones I'm sure most won't mind that but I need a few more items.
3 The length of your barrel from the muzzle point where the rifling starts to the top of the breech plug. You cannot compute this you have to measure it. The best way is install the breech plug (and vent if not recessed) put the ramrod down the barrel (cleaning jag attached: see below) till it touches the breech plug and make a mark on the ramrod at the start of the rifling.
4 The length of powder charge and wad (if used). The easiest way to get this is to use a fiber wad and the mark you made on the ramrod in the above measurement. Pour in the powder engage the fiber wad with a ramrod with a cleaning jag to keep it fairly straight in the barrel. Push it down to the powder. You should push with some energy as the powder should be as about compressed as when a bullet in loaded. If you make another mark on the ramrod the difference between the marks is now the charge length.
5 If all of those weren't enough I want one last thing. The average speed of the bullet from the load if you can measure it. I need at least 5 shots to get an average speed.
If all the above is too much work you can still help by giving me your load information and making a simple measurement. All you have to do is measure the inside length of your barrel with the ramrod method give above then put in your favorite load and measure it again. If you tell me what bullet your using I can then subtract it's length and get the charge length. This is not as accurate because I have to decide how much the bullet is shortened by the loading jag recess but I can still get close.
I know this is a lot to ask but I will tell it may make loading the 45 and 40 calibers easier in the future and I promise to share anything I learn with every one who wants to know.
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Dec 2, 2008 9:01:52 GMT -5
RB, please clear up a point for me: With a recessed BP I think you want the barrel-to-plug measurement taken at the bottom of the recess, don't you? That's the only way you could reliably measure the difference between the muzzle/BP and the length of the powder/wad.
Harley
|
|
ewc
Spike
Posts: 42
|
Post by ewc on Dec 2, 2008 12:16:08 GMT -5
RB-
I'll be glad to get all those measurements from my .40, but its still loaded and season won't be over here until December 21.
Judd
|
|
|
Post by edge on Dec 2, 2008 12:55:34 GMT -5
On the same topic, I have some approximations that I would like to verify. I am estimating that 10 grains of a powder will be a certain length in each caliber and I'd like to be more certain. Since I don't have all of these anyone that does I'd appreciate verification and it would answer part of the question for RB Example: If you shoot 50 grains of IMR 4198 in a 0.408 caliber, I would estimate that it would be 0.376 x 5 = 1.880 long. 10 grains .458 caliber .408 caliber 2015BR 0.275 0.346 5744 0.285 0.359 2400 0.279 0.352 RELODER 7 0.274 0.346 LIL'GUN 0.255 0.322 H322 0.273 0.344 H4198 0.282 0.356 H4227 0.289 0.365 H4895 0.274 0.346 IMR3031 0.287 0.361 IMR4198 0.298 0.376 IMR4227 0.289 0.365 IMR4895 0.274 0.346 SR4759 0.374 0.471 v-N110 0.314 0.395 v-N120 0.292 0.368 v-N130 0.283 0.357 v-N133 0.289 0.365
Obviously each barrel is a bit different so I assume a +-, plus the amount of compression will make a difference too. I am only assuming 100% bulk, so your results may differ. Thanks. edge.
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 2, 2008 20:10:54 GMT -5
RB, please clear up a point for me: With a recessed BP I think you want the barrel-to-plug measurement taken at the bottom of the recess, don't you? That's the only way you could reliably measure the difference between the muzzle/BP and the length of the powder/wad. Harley Harley a recessed plug does make a difference but rather than measuring the length of the barrel and recess an easier way is to make the measurement as given above then note you have a recessed plug. Then to account for the recess all you's have to do is take out the plug and fill the recess with powder (fairly compressed) and measure the amount in the plug in grains. For those of you who'd like to know more it should be obvious from EDGE's post the volume of powder is important in estimating pressure. I am in the process of setting up to make pressure measurement in 45 and 40 caliber. One of the major objectives is to compare measured pressure against etimated pressure. The purpose of the measurement (to your load) is to have a base line to work up as accurate an estimate as possible. I won't have any hard data until at least a few months into next year but it is a good time to get the paper work done.
|
|
|
Post by DW on Dec 2, 2008 20:24:38 GMT -5
I can give you some data also, but it will be next week due to deer season.
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 4, 2008 0:18:35 GMT -5
I am estimating that 10 grains of a powder will be a certain length in each caliber and I'd like to be more certain. Since I don't have all of these anyone that does I'd appreciate verification and it would answer part of the question for RB Example: If you shoot 50 grains of IMR 4198 in a 0.408 caliber, I would estimate that it would be 0.376 x 5 = 1.880 long. 10 grains .458 caliber .408 caliber H4198 0.282 0.356
compression will make a difference too. I am only assuming 100% bulk, so your results may differ. Thanks. edge. Today I took the cut off of one of my .458 barrels and machined a length of it to as close 1.00" as possible. I've only had time to try one powder but the one inch length of barrel held 37.5 grains of H-4198 With the data you list 56 grains should be .282 X 5.6 = 1.579" Using my measurement the load should be 56/37.5 or 1.499" The difference is .080" and by your constant the weight of a 1" .458 column is 35.5 grains = 1/.282 X 10 I'm not sure this is close enough to confirm the table or far enough apart to blame LOL I'll take the measurement again and try some others as time permits.
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Dec 4, 2008 6:42:17 GMT -5
Rick, As someone who has called you, too many times to count and said "HELP" you can count on me.
Marty
|
|
|
Post by edge on Dec 4, 2008 8:26:17 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by chuck41 on Dec 4, 2008 13:16:24 GMT -5
On the same topic, I have some approximations that I would like to verify. I am estimating that 10 grains of a powder will be a certain length in each caliber and I'd like to be more certain. Since I don't have all of these anyone that does I'd appreciate verification and it would answer part of the question for RB Example: If you shoot 50 grains of IMR 4198 in a 0.408 caliber, I would estimate that it would be 0.376 x 5 = 1.880 long. 10 grains .458 caliber .408 caliber H322 0.273 0.344
IMR3031 0.287 0.361 IMR4198 0.298 0.376 IMR4227 0.289 0.365
SR4759 0.374 0.471
Obviously each barrel is a bit different so I assume a +-, plus the amount of compression will make a difference too. I am only assuming 100% bulk, so your results may differ. Thanks. edge. Since I saw that Varget was not in your mix, I measured the following from my 3" .409 Pacnor barrel drop. Length 3 1/16" including .060 fiber wad (3" powder column) I put one fiber wad in the bottom of the barrel drop and filled it to within 1/8" of the top. Then pressed the column to loading pressure and added enough powder to refill the load. For my 3" column of the PacNor .409 barrel drop I measured the following: Data measured for .409" Pacnor Powder Wt for Gr/inch Column inches Type 3" Column (.409) for 10 grains H322 99.4 33.133 0.3018 I3031 84.5 28.167 0.3550 I4198 90.0 30.003 0.3332 I4227 88.9 29.633 0.3375 SR4759 75.6 25.200 0.3968 Varget 94.4 31.467 0.3178
Noted some significant differences in my measured results with compressed loads to Edge's data on the powders measured. RB, I will try to get your other information when I get back to the range for the powders I use. Sorry I have no Benchmark, 4320 or 4350 for those "light speed" .40 loads. (Note: The 3031 I measured is a very old batch! Can is labeled "Dupont". ;D Likewise the 4227. )
|
|
|
Post by edge on Dec 4, 2008 14:28:24 GMT -5
Thanks, that is great data edge.
|
|
ewc
Spike
Posts: 42
|
Post by ewc on Dec 4, 2008 15:04:20 GMT -5
Using Chuck's numbers, my currently loaded .40 powder column should measure 2.3414" 10/61 (10gr SR-4759 and 61 gr Varget). Edge- What's your estimate of pressure? Last time I shot, this timed to 2,765 @ approx. 55 deg F. I don't know if you need it, but I'm at 1100 feet above sea level. Thanks- Judd Forgot bullet wt of 195 gr.
|
|
|
Post by dave d. on Dec 4, 2008 16:15:05 GMT -5
:)rb,i'm loaded up right now but as soon as i unload i will give you my load in the .40 (66gr of 2015 killer load) and in the .45(62gr of 4198).
|
|
|
Post by edge on Dec 4, 2008 17:34:23 GMT -5
ewc, mind you this is only an estimate, and it is probably a better predictor of average pressure.....
Approximately 42,300 psi and an average of 12,770 psi.
edge.
|
|
|
Post by DW on Dec 4, 2008 19:30:49 GMT -5
.45 barrel-24.625" in length
12gr-N110/48gr-2015 Vel.-2682fps Col.-1.632 Bullet 195BX
53.5gr-H4198 Vel-2280fps Col with 2-.030 wads-1.463 Bullet 300SST
56gr-H4198 Vel-2508fps Col with 2.030 wads-1.569 Bullet 275BE
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 5, 2008 0:34:32 GMT -5
.45 barrel-24.625" in length 12gr-N110/48gr-2015 Vel.-2682fps Col.-1.632 Bullet 195BX 53.5gr-H4198 Vel-2280fps Col with 2-.030 wads-1.463 Bullet 300SST 56gr-H4198 Vel-2508fps Col with 2.030 wads-1.569 Bullet 275BE Now that's what I call data thanks a lot. The first load is estimated using a 204 grain bullet because most 45 caliber sabots weigh 9 grains: Best case (lowest pressure) Pressure(CUP) 37861.730 Expansion Ratio (R) 15.083 W 71.637 F2 3.023 K1 18524300.708 K2 2.062 K3 1008.858 Worse case (highest pressure) Pressure(CUP) 39693.148 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.074 W 66.926 F2 3.174 K1 19420343.689 K2 2.062 K3 1008.858 Load number 2 Best Case Pressure(CUP) 42221.470 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.827 W 63.745 F2 3.327 K1 13139168.771 K2 3.242 K3 1008.858 Worse case Pressure(CUP) 44258.915 Expansion Ratio (R) 17.568 W 60.000 F2 3.436 K1 13571491.482 K2 3.242 K3 994.082 Load number 3 Best case Pressure(CUP) 44747.729 Expansion Ratio (R) 15.664 W 68.798 F2 3.142 K1 15717916.900 K2 2.872 K3 1008.858 Worse case Pressure(CUP) 46799.466 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.689 W 64.302 F2 3.297 K1 16492949.737 K2 2.863 K3 1008.858 I added this comment to the post after I thought about it. The last load looks extreme but keep in mind I don't normally see 2500+fps with a 275 grain bullet and 56 grains of powder. The load data for the 450 Marlin shows this speed with a 250 grain bullet and 57 grains of powder.
|
|
ewc
Spike
Posts: 42
|
Post by ewc on Dec 5, 2008 17:26:00 GMT -5
A .40 question-
What pressure range are we looking for? 42-47? Quiting before 50?
I want to stay safe while pushing speed around 3,000 or so. Using Edge's link I can get there at about 46-47,000 cup and 80-85 gr of powder. Would you consider this a safe place pressure-wise?
Thanks-
Judd
|
|
|
Post by edge on Dec 5, 2008 19:52:59 GMT -5
What must be remembered is that CUP is not the same as PSI. If you are interested, here is a link: www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf50,000 CUP is very high, but not an exact number! From the above link: "There are cases where SAAMI has set maximum pressures for rifles in both CUP and PSI. That data set spans a few tens of thousands of PSI, and, assuming that SAAMI was careful in how they set the limits, it is much better for our purpose." 30-06 springfield 50000 CUP, 60000 PSI edge.
|
|
|
Post by SW on Dec 5, 2008 21:38:14 GMT -5
The 4 guns loaded. 1 deer to go. Season 26-28 Dec(as you know). Still x-bow hunting. Info after that.
|
|
|
Post by DW on Dec 5, 2008 23:03:10 GMT -5
.45 barrel-24.625" in length 12gr-N110/48gr-2015 Vel.-2682fps Col.-1.632 Bullet 195BX 53.5gr-H4198 Vel-2280fps Col with 2-.030 wads-1.463 Bullet 300SST 56gr-H4198 Vel-2508fps Col with 2.030 wads-1.569 Bullet 275BE Now that's what I call data thanks a lot. The first load is estimated using a 204 grain bullet because most 45 caliber sabots weigh 9 grains: Best case (lowest pressure) Pressure(CUP) 37861.730 Expansion Ratio (R) 15.083 W 71.637 F2 3.023 K1 18524300.708 K2 2.062 K3 1008.858 Worse case (highest pressure) Pressure(CUP) 39693.148 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.074 W 66.926 F2 3.174 K1 19420343.689 K2 2.062 K3 1008.858 Load number 2 Best Case Pressure(CUP) 42221.470 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.827 W 63.745 F2 3.327 K1 13139168.771 K2 3.242 K3 1008.858 Worse case Pressure(CUP) 44258.915 Expansion Ratio (R) 17.568 W 60.000 F2 3.436 K1 13571491.482 K2 3.242 K3 994.082 Load number 3 Best case Pressure(CUP) 44747.729 Expansion Ratio (R) 15.664 W 68.798 F2 3.142 K1 15717916.900 K2 2.872 K3 1008.858 Worse case Pressure(CUP) 46799.466 Expansion Ratio (R) 16.689 W 64.302 F2 3.297 K1 16492949.737 K2 2.863 K3 1008.858 I added this comment to the post after I thought about it. The last load looks extreme but keep in mind I don't normally see 2500+fps with a 275 grain bullet and 56 grains of powder. The load data for the 450 Marlin shows this speed with a 250 grain bullet and 57 grains of powder. I know it is on the warm side but that is where the gun shoots that bullet with H4198. The 250BE likes to be shot at approx. 2600 with 59gr in my gun. I can't get 59gr in my barrel drop or I would have given you the data on that load as well.
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 6, 2008 2:37:50 GMT -5
A .40 question- What pressure range are we looking for? 42-47? Quiting before 50? I want to stay safe while pushing speed around 3,000 or so. Using Edge's link I can get there at about 46-47,000 cup and 80-85 gr of powder. Would you consider this a safe place pressure-wise? Thanks- Judd Judd for the load listed as a 70 grain duplex at 2765fps I get the following predictions: Best case Pressure(CUP) 41724.786 Expansion Ratio (R) 10.433 W 77.031 F2 2.249 K1 17088000.459 K2 1.774 K3 726.642 Worse Case Pressure(CUP) 43077.689 Expansion Ratio (R) 10.860 W 73.698 F2 2.322 K1 17642069.224 K2 1.774 K3 726.642 For a load to 3000fps there are many varibles but let me try a few whacks at it I assume a 200 grain bullet no sabot. 75 grains of powder best case Pressure(CUP) 47232.730 Expansion Ratio (R) 9.838 W 82.215 F2 2.140 K1 20510737.273 K2 1.673 K3 726.642 This level is probably to much pressure. Not that a well made rifle like the 10ML won't take it. In fact safety levels would be more than listed but the limiting factor would be vent liner life as liners only go 25 shots or less at this pressure. 80 grains of powder best case Pressure(CUP) 44642.227 Expansion Ratio (R) 9.081 W 89.918 F2 2.002 K1 20466202.511 K2 1.585 K3 726.642 This is not so far off what could work. In fact though no direct releation can be made imperical evidence indicates that this may be a close match in PSI as well. Not only that but for every few thousand pounds/cup pressure reduction you gain a few tens of shots on the vent.
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Dec 6, 2008 3:21:20 GMT -5
A .40 question- What pressure range are we looking for? 42-47? Quiting before 50? I want to stay safe while pushing speed around 3,000 or so. Using Edge's link I can get there at about 46-47,000 cup and 80-85 gr of powder. Would you consider this a safe place pressure-wise? Thanks-Judd Judd asks an important question as well as bringing up what EDGE has pointed out that you can't work with PSI and CUP. The relation between the two is not established as allowing translation from one to the other. However to make a long answer short I like to shoot sabot-less loads less than 50,000psi. In most cases I like 45,000psi or less but in some cases the best over all results require an efficent load and efficiency is had with pressure. What is that in CUP? Well as said there is no EXACT answer. As pressure goes higher CUP diverges from PSI rapidly till most consider 50,000 CUP loads as corresponding to 62,000+psi. Thats quite some divergence but it least it is well known. At some point PSI and CUP would need to meet. That's so because on the other end of the pressure scale smaller CUP values seem to indicate less pressure. Pistol loads of 15,000cup might get the same speed as those measured at 10,000psi.. Niether scale is wrong just as yards and meters aren't wrong they are just different. In this case however if one thing works in our favor it is if the two have a common point it is near the common working pressure for a medium pressure rifle 41 to 43 thousand CUP/psi. I mostly deal in CUP and find that any load under 45,000 does not wear vents quickly and allows room for adjustment. However I also sometimes use psi when no CUP data is available such as for more modern developed cases like the 450 Marlin. For the average shooter the best idea is to use a tested load or consult with someone who can help you not stumble when dealing with two different measurements. It seems some want to have a few light speed .408 loads and if so I'll either help you work it up or direct you to those who have suitable results. In this case I know everybody wants 3000fps but with an 80 grain load limit might I suggest lowering expectations a small amount to 2900fps. In that case a load less than 45,000psi or CUP would be easy to achieve and vent liners would not even have a worry.
|
|
|
Post by DW on Jan 3, 2009 16:51:36 GMT -5
Couple more for you RB but neither is a keeper as far as accuracy. .45 barrel-24.625" in length 63gr 10X Vel.-2345fps Col. with 2-.030 wads-1.641 Bullet 275BE 62gr H322 Vel.-2341fps Col. with 2-.030 wads 1.5 Bullet 275BE
|
|