Round ball barrel savage MLII

[survo99]

Hey, I’ve been all over the web looking to see if any one has thought about or put a Pac-Nor or Green Mountain 1:60 twist barrel on a Savage ML II. I’ve been shooting black powder for some time but since I’ve moved to California supplies are really hard to come by and when I do find them it feels like I’m being raped as I pull out my wallet. After a bit of research I bought the Savage knowing that 209 primers and smokeless powder are easy to come by. The only real draw back is the price of the sabot’s averaging over a buck each, where I can cast round ball for less than 10 cents a piece. This is pretty important since I’m on my second barrel for my Lyman’s Great Plains. The first probably having 3 or 4 thousand rounds shot through it, so you can see my desire to reduce my shooting expenses.

Now I imagine a lot of people don’t mind paying the extra for the performance they get from sabots, but the truth is that I stay within a 100 yards when hunting with a smoke pole. This rule has served me well and the farthest a deer has ever fallen from the original shot was only about 45 yards. 2 of them didn’t make it 10 yards with the old 50 cal with in a 50 yard shot. In other words I’ve very happy with the performance I get from the patch and ball. I have had some experience using cast lead conical bullets in my T/C that has a 1:48 twist but the groups weren’t anything to brag about. With that said I’m wondering if any one has any ideas or help on this matter before I spend $500 to $600 dollars for a barrel.

Thanks
Gus
Ps I'm not sure if I'm posting this right bear with me through the learning curve

[hunter]

This is my first year with the savage and smokeless powder. In my opinion, I do not think a patched round ball will shoot very good groups unless you use a very reduced load. Also I am not sure that a round ball will seat tight enough to assure a powder ignition on a regular basis. I would think that you could cast a lead bullet and use sabots and greatly reduce your costs, maybe .25 each.

[mshm99]

Gus,
Welcome. I can't imagine who would be charging $1.00 a piece for a sabot. Even if you order straight from MMP , or Mid South for crush ribs, they are around 15 cents, give or take a few cents.
IMO ,what's the point of paying the the most advanced muzzle loader muzzle loader out today if your not going to take advantage of everything it brings to the table. Heck, with shots under a hundred yards ,you can get good performance with weapons in the $100-$200 range. Use Blackhorn209 ,and clean up is a snap. No crud ring . Next best thing to smokeless.

Using remington 300 gr. .458's , a black crush rib , 60 gr, n-120 ,a 209-a primer ,I' rght at 50 cents. With 250 gr XTP's red crush rib ,n110,209, about a dime less. For this you 2 MOA or less.

I've shot some 190 gr cast .451 bullets (for a 45 acp) ,in a sabot,at 2000 fps with good accuracy , if you really want to go that way.

I can't think a of a way to say this nicely. In my opinion this would be huge waste of money and effort.

Please don't be offended. I have to be honest.

mshm

[survo99]

Hmmmm It would take a little testing to get the right patch thickness and I know I wouldn't develope the pressures of sabots but more than enough within 100 yards. I have thought about a double sabot, .45 cast lead but then again prices start to go up. I would like to try and get the price of each shot down to 30 cents if possible. Even so thanks for the imput!

[CraigF]

I would do this. Shoot Hornady 250 grain XPTs.
$22 per 100 from Midway.
www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=776746

Sabots, MMP short black, $7.75 for 50 (shipping included)

Total cost per shot, not inluding powder, primers, or shipping on bullets, $0.37. There are actually pretty accurate. I can get 3" groups at 200 yards with them and they will do a deer.

I personally use Remington 300 grain 45/70 bullets, $25 from Cabelas, and Harvestor Black Crush Ribs Sabots $5.25 for 50. These are good out to 200 yards and work on deer as well.

Both of these options do not break the bank.

[KerryB]

Lets see, you are considering using your Savage smokeless muzzleloader......... $500-$600 and different barrel for another $500 or so, just so you can save a few cents per shot? Hmmmmmmmmm ;D

[petev]

I know there were posts a year or two back recommending the correct diameter lead ball for the Savage. Trying to look at this with an open mind: shooting lead balls would be cheaper. They are far easier to load. If ffg powder was used, you wouldn't have to pack the bullet any tighter than normal for a bp muzzleloader. The speed of reloading would be much faster, and a follow-up shot would be far more possible than with the usual saboted bullets. The big question is whether the rifling twist would be too fast, or how much you would have to reduce the load because of it. As you said you shoot at close range so that might not be a problem. It's an interesting question, although a lot of people here would not understand because they want long distance shooters. I know I went to an inline only because my eyesight now requires a scope and I figured I might as well just make the jump to an inline and try it. Also Savage stocks fit me very well. I have however found a good all round close shooting load of 37.3 gr AA 5744, 300 gr .358 Hornaday, orange MMP sabot, CCI primer. All those components are readily availabe, it is pretty accurate at close range, wont kill scopes and the powder ingnites consistently. This combination is a bit of a compromise that has given me some of the best of the old bp ml style and new smokeless technology. Survo I will find interesting any experiments you do in this area. Like you my emphasis is strictly hunting. Pete

[survo99]

I hate computers!!! Sorry about that mshm99. Like I said getting raped! I bought a 20 count sabot pack of bullets for $17 the other day. They shot well but just to d**n pricey for me. Even Cabella's center points are $15 for a box of 12. Still you make some valid points about taking full advantage of the weapon. It's versitality is one of the reasons I bought it. Not to get to far off the subject but I fore see our legislators making it harder to buy any type of ammo through rapid tax advances. Let's face it we've already seen a 30% price hike from 2007 and it's only going to get worse. I reload everything but shotgun and probably need to be doing that too. Still My thoughts are on the long term cost.

[petev]

T/C makes "Cheap Shots" - a lead hollow point saboted bullet. They are cheap, load well, but the few I tried shoot so-so.

[SW]

I'm sure you meant sabot/bullet. Still, they don't have to be that expensive as has been stated. A 250STP/Sabot(I'll bet a # of 45 cal shooters would send you their remaining sabots for free - I would) is appx 1/3 the cost of $1. No, the 24 would over-stabilize the RB way too much unless shot at a very low velocity - an impractical velocity. You could use Lyman or T/c molds and mold your own conicals that would shoot. The cost would be such that after thousands of moldings, your savings over buying 250/300XTPs would be in the 1cent per hour of work range. Patching, lub,casting expendables,lead, etc TIME, only if you shoot many 1,000s of shots a year could you even come close to breaking even and that's if you are appx 10 years old and will shoot until you're 100. Appx 25 years ago, I went nuts and had the "best MLer" in the world made. It is an exact copy of the 1857 Gremler Hawkin except all modern steel, with Jewel lock /Trigger bedded, 2 oz trigger, special order Shilen match grade barrel(2 Edwards recoil reducers in stock), browned by a chemist at LSU progressive twist from 77 to 56: all done by Ozark Mountain Arms. $1,000s(a few) of dollars. It won at virtually Every Rendezvous I entered for years. I haven't shot it at all(it is well preserved) since getting one of the very 1st MLs. A 10-ML2 would beat it at a Rendezvous any day. Go out and "splurge", get a box of 250XTPs, a can of 4759, some short MMP sabots, some Win 209s and go shoot. Then bring the gun home and don't clean it except maybe wiping the barrel out with some kind of ML cleaner and dry patch. Go shoot again another day and do it all over again. Be sure to really clean and store the other MLer.

[survo99]

I’m getting a little side tracked but to answer a statement Yes I would spend $500 on a barrel that would save me thousands over the long run. I only have a couple of weapons that I haven’t spent more on the ammo then the price of the original gun. Maybe I’m an odd character but the quest for the “perfect” load usually means a lot on time at the range and I have been known to put in a full 8 hours of shooting in one sitting in that search. I’ve come to expect it through my years of muzzle loading and I expect it now.

I know it may sounds like I want to take a porshe and convert it into a VW but with the price of traditional powders like pyrodx and blackhorn climbing not to mention the added cost to black powder for shipping. The only reasonable thing to do is switch to smokeless. Even 209 primers are 1 to 2 cents cheaper a peace. The round ball has served me well for many years, it’s not the latest or the greatest but it suits my purpose.

I guess from the responses that no one has attempted to convert their savage to RB and to be truthful I cant blame them for not wanting to. But I believe there is great potential for a truly simplified shooting ML experience while reducing cost.

[rossman40]

You could drop cost more going with plated bullets from Rainier or Berry's for plinking or lead cast as Mshm mentioned if you keep the speed down. But hunting with roundball, I've done it but will never go back unless I found a honey hole with every shot being 35yds or less. Besides the way California is going you may not be able to use lead in a few years.

[mike.dawson]

When you take off that savage barrel, PM me and I will buy it from you.

Mike

[RBinAR]

Jan 3, 2009 13:55:10 GMT -5 survo99 said:

Hmmmm It would take a little testing to get the right patch thickness and I know I wouldn't develope the pressures of sabots but more than enough within 100 yards. I have thought about a double sabot, .45 cast lead but then again prices start to go up. I would like to try and get the price of each shot down to 30 cents if possible. Even so thanks for the imput!

I think you can shoot round balls but you'll have to do a few things. First is to shoot a very fast burning powder like Imr-4659 (not Imr-4759 they are NOT the same). Second you'll have to settle for regular BP speeds trying to go much faster may flatten the ball and accuracy would not be very good.

The shot shell powder would give you two advantages. One is it WILL shoot it does not need much (if any) back pressure to ignite. Second it burns such that not too much energy will be transferred into the patch and you won't get patch disruption.

I hope that helped but it's the best I can do. I haven't tried to shoot many round balls for a while.

[RBinAR]

Jan 3, 2009 19:04:11 GMT -5 mike.dawson said:

When you take off that savage barrel, PM me and I will buy it from you.

Mike

If you need a barrel I have a few.