Scope failure

[12ptdroptine]

I have some one who wants me to post this for him. He has a new Savage and wants to mount up a Leupold VXI 3x9x40 on it. I read here on a thread that the Rifleman and VXI don't fare well on this gun... So those of you who can speak for the VXI On the Savage, good or bad Pleas do so here. Tha t way he can make an educated decision. Thanks all Drop

[SW]

In general, lower priced scopes haven't held up well on the 10-ML/ML-2. There appear to be exceptions: non-AO Bushnell 3200 and Burris FF 2s and likely others.

[ozark]

It does seem that the MLII is tough on scopes. I personally think it is because many loads for high velocity and creates heavy recoil plus the fact that many are used in a leadsled which practically eliminates the rifle from moving during recoil. Possibly another cause is that in a fixture the rifle bounces forward when limited from moving backward. Just guessing. Ozark

[12ptdroptine]

I took mine to the range yesterday and shot it from the sled. I use 50# of lead shot. With my 12ga slug guns it move's a little each time I fire them on the bench. But not much. And I can see where there need's to be some give. I have thought about putting some foam between the butpad and the back of the sled to allow some movement. I was shooting .44gr of 5744 with a 250 gr sst. Would you consider this a high pressure load? I intend to work up a load with the BO and N120 of about 57 to 61 gr. Is this considered a high pressure load? I am not trying to be funny here...Just learn. I dont want to destroy my equipment either. I am using a VXII. But I do want to have good shot capabilities out to 250 yds... Without them being marginal. So what do you advise from here? I recomended a scope of at the VXII level...But maybe it's not enough? Thanks Drop

[SW]

Jan 3, 2009 21:22:07 GMT -5 12ptdroptine said:

I was shooting .44gr of 5744 with a 250 gr sst. Would you consider this a high pressure load? I intend to work up a load with the BO and N120 of about 57 to 61 gr. Is this considered a high pressure load? Drop

Don't confuse "pressure" and "recoil". The first load has relatively hi pressure but very low recoil. The 2nd load has a lot of recoil but maybe actually less pressure. 85gs of H-322 and 250 XTP has a lot of recoil but not very much pressure. Recoil normally can be directly related to how much the powder and bullet/sabot weigh and how fast they go out.

[youp50]

I am pretty sue that if you wreck a Leupold with recoil they will replace it. I found my ML second hand several years ago. Judging from the amount of powder and the missing bullets from the boxes it had been to the range a lot. It had at least 100 rounds down it, maybe more.

It was wearing a Chinese made Tasco World Class 2-7 scope. That scope was replaced, but not discarded. I just picked up a Stevens 200 and looked around and that was the best of the pile of take offs. It is functioning correctly. That the Chinese made Tasco scopes are anything, but world class is a given.

I am not posting this to say 'get a Tasco', just that in any line of scopes you will find some that are different. Some here have had bad luck with high end Leupolds and swear by Zeiss, but there has been a failure among that line also.

Most will say get the best you can afford. I would like to add that you should get the smallest, lightest you can get by with.

[RAF]

I've only ever had one scope fail and it was on a Remington 22 RF, a semi to boot. That scope came off a 243. I doubt that recoil was the issue but quality of scope.
My savage doesn't recoil like my 30-06 so can't understand what's happening to the scopes on them. I've had a number of different scopes on my 30-06 from a bushnell banner, bushnell trophy and up to a 3200. Not because the scope failed, but because I was looking for something better. Never had a problem. I have a 3200 on my 300 WSM. Now that's recoil and no problem with the scope. I've read here that many use a lead sled at the range and IMO I think that's the culprit. It doesn't allow the recoil to be absorbed by your shoulder and body. I also believe any device used on the bench that stops the recoil hard will shake even the best scope. They're precise and delicate instruments and have to move with the rifle.

[bigmoose]

Buy the best scope, you can afford, If you put a cheap scope on the best custon rifle ever made, all you have is what???
I'd rather have a 500.00 scope on a 500.00 rifle, than a 5000.00 rifle with a 200.00 scope.

[joe21a]

There is a video on the INTERNET that showed a 50 Cal. rifle being shot. I was surprised at how much the scope mount and scope flexed when they showed it in slo-mo. I am not sure how much more recoil it has over the 50 cal. ML shooting hot 300gr (bullets) loads. I have always stayed away from the scope with big glass and adjustments on the front bell in a heavy recoil rifle. 40mm scope in 3-9 power weighing about 12 to 13 oz seem to hold up well under recoil for me.

[jtwodogs]

I have one of the old Leupold vari-x2c 3x9 for the last 2 years it has held up well. I do not think you can go wrong with a leupy, if one does fail they will fix or replace, that is no consolation right in the middle of season, but like someone else pointed out that could happen with any of them. I have a couple of Burris on some hard kickers, one is on a modified Marlin bolt action slugger, the other is on a .450 Marlin mxlr with shorten barrel it shoots handcast 430 gr. slug, and they seemed to hold up well.

[12ptdroptine]

We are absorbing all this information... However are there any Leupold VXI storie's? Drop

[jtwodogs]

Hey Drop. The reason I chimed in early was that I think some people call the old Leupy vari-x2c was the same as the new Vari-X1. That is what I have heard anyway do know if this is fact or not.

[12ptdroptine]

OK cool... I am not sure with all the model change's and all myself. Drop I still wish to hear all scope related comments...I am trying hard to convince my friend to go with at least a VXII He is a died in the wool Leupold fan. So am I . Drop

[dougedwards]

You might want to wait for the new VX3 to come out.....or it's replacement. Some have suggested that Leupold might put V-7 glass in the VXIII among other changes. My only complaint on Leupold is that for the same money you can usually purchase a scope with much better glass and same features from another major rifle scope manufacturer. However it seems that now Leupold is getting serious about competing in a more educated market for hunting and target scopes. It will be nice to see if they plan on competing in the same price range.

Doug

[wilmsmeyer]

Some guys shoot their ML's 1000's of times with heavy loads and IMO, this is why this gun seems to be rough on scopes...all scopes.

If this was a .458 win mag forum and we had dozens of fellows shooting them hard all year we would probably see the same things.

Yes, this gun will sort out scopes over time. My VXII 3 X 9 has yet to give me a problem and it has seen many 100's of heavy shots. The casual shooter/hunter who pokes a few holes in paper and 1-2 holes in deer will probably be served OK with any proven quality scope. IMO

[bigmoose]

One last Time.

Ive had two Savage rifle since 01, I now have over 5000 rounds fired.
Both rifles wear Leupold VX-111 3.5X10X40mm scope, I shoot what some folks call full power loads.....0 problems with the scope.

I didnt count shoots fired, but did keep track of cans of powder that I uses. Rick Bibby gave me the formula for number of shoot per pound, that was two years ago, at time time it was over 4000, so you see when I say 5000, I am being very, very, conservative. If at this point one of my scopes failed, I would without question buy another Leupold scope.....However if the scope failed much sooner, I would do as other have reported and buy another brand.....Each of us are products of our own experiences.

[rossman40]

Scopes have been a problem on the 10ML from the start. Of course the biggest factor is the level of recoil. Not many rifles in the past mounted optics in the 375 H&H class and above and if they did they were not shot much. Now we have rifles in .50 BMG, .338 LM, .300 RUM and other heavy recoilers and I would like to think the better scope makers stepped up to the plate and did their part to toughen up the scopes. I think scopes have came a long way just from the 70s.

Another factor is mounting. Mounting a scope on a .22 or even a 30-06 you do not have to be perfect. But when you up the recoil level if it isn't right your going to kill the scope. The slightest amount of slack or looseness and your going to be slamming the scope. Have the scope in a bind and your zero may be moving all over till something breaks.

We have learned a lot that guys shooting a .223 or .308 do not even realize.

Mounts should be steel with full width cross-slots. I'm not a fan of "turn-in" mounts and rings but that is my opinion.

Rings should mate well with the mounts. Not just the ring laying flat on the dovetails but the recoil lug/crossbolt should also fit well in the cross-slot with .010" or less play front to rear. You can not count on the side clamp of the ring to hold the scope during heavy recoil, the recoil is taken by the recoil lug/crossbolt not the side clamp. Never make the mistake of using a picatinny mount with a .205" wide cross-slot and then use a weaver style ring with a .140" recoil lug/crossbolt, your asking for trouble. When installing the ring on the mount push the ring forward before/during tightening.

Ring alignment is important, maybe more important on a Savage due to most receivers having a slight warp. You can use alignment bars or lap the rings to verify. You can use a one-piece mount like a Warne or Farrell to minimize it and if your stuck on two-piece mounts the Burris Signature Zee rings with the plastic inserts are a great choice.

Check frequently for looseness during range sessions and even out in the field. Just .001" of play will be at least 1 MOA not to mention the slamming the scope may be getting.

All I can say is if he is dead set on a VXI a quality install may prolong the life. As far as the VXI the quality of them seems to be on a roller coaster, In the 70s and early 80s they were great then it seemed they cheapened them up in the late 80s and 90s and now they seem to be a bit better as they kept refining (specially after 2002) but you get better lens and coatings with the VXIIs along with tougher internals.

[1187vx2]

I've used my Savage now for 4 years & the only scope I've had on it is a VX-1 3-9X40. No issues. About every year I think I'll replace that scope with this or that, but then I get the gun out of the cabinet, look through the scope, think about all the deer I've looked at through it............and then I put it back in the cabinet. Maybe some day I will actually upgrade it though - to a VX-1 4-12X40 - I don't recall ever using 3X on my current scope anyway.......

[elkboy65]

joe21a -- There is a video on the INTERNET that showed a 50 Cal. rifle being shot. I was surprised at how much the scope mount and scope flexed when they showed it in slo-mo.

you have a link to that video?

[DW]

This might be the video he was referring to.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5pVya7eask

Nice post Rossman.

[jims]

That video has got me wondering. I like my scope mounted as low as possible, my scope on my MLII has just a bit more than a 1/16 inch clearance. I wonder if upon recoil the barrel and scope make contact? Any thoughts?

[dougedwards]

The scope in that video moved upward way more than downward. I would think that if the scope was actually making contact with the barrel that you would notice some evidence of that collision on the bottom of the objective bell of the scope.

Doug

[12ptdroptine]

First off guy's that cannon is a .50BMG..and it looks to me like that scope rail is about at least 10 inch's long... Its gonna flex and jump around. But back to topic..I am still learning here. Thanks Drop

[elkboy65]

Thanks DW

[rossman40]

Jim, the scope pictured was pretty long but if you wonder, take you a piece of playdough or modeling clay and put underneath the bell and see if it smashes it during firing.

[deadeye]

jims/you probably ok but if they are hitting there will be a mark on top of barrel where bell is close & on the bottom side of the bell,you fellas should see the flex(in slo-mo) on an arrow as it released out of a bow/mindboggling//12pt droptine-the 50bmg is a little different on recoil than the sav 2- a 24lb- 50bmg with a certain brake was recorded as backward thrust @ 540 g-forces w/@ the bullet marking the brake @ 510 g-forces forward,id rather shoot a 50bmg any day than a 300rum or a sav 2 w/bo load-recoil wise,dont ask me how i know,just rented one from a pawn shop once!

[8ptbuk]

My biggest complaints with the VX series of scopes is the ever changing eye relief !!! Change the power ! Changes the eye relief ! Tough scopes without a doubt. 4 x 12 is terrible for that. 3 x 9 not quite as bad.

[youp50]

jims,

How do you access the safety? I would like to have a larger, easier to use piece.

[jims]

The safety is not an issue although it is the non-accutrigger and the safety is smaller than the new models. The front bell is where it is so close, it is a 6.5x20x50mm scope on that ML.

[375jdj]

I Have had to send my 3 - 9 VXII back twice and they finally replaced it.
Never used less then a VXIII before and won't do it again. I think Leupold has let their QC slip trying to make price point scopes.
I finally changed the rings to the twist in type leupold front and rear which is what I normally use on heavy recoiling rifles. I have seen many of the windage adjustable type rear rings shear the screws off. One more weak link.
I am not so sure that the sled causes more stress on the scope. While it limits rearward travel, it is the travel that causes inertia. Since the sled isn't bolted and can actually move under recoil which mine does, I don't think it significantly increases the stress on the scope. I would tend to think stress is decreased. Need a slomo in and out of the sled.