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Post by robhinze on Jan 3, 2009 20:12:52 GMT -5
What would make the best long range rig with a sav. ml's, 50, 45, 40. ranges to be between 500 - 1000 yrds. Just ringing steel so I would not care about terminal balistics. Second, Is there a commercial sabot available to shoot 375's out of a 40 cal?
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Post by CraigF on Jan 3, 2009 20:24:28 GMT -5
I would guess 40 sabotless, SW?
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Post by SW on Jan 3, 2009 22:04:11 GMT -5
I would guess 40 sabotless, SW? You'll never believe this answer. The best long range would be the gun/caliber that can shoot the combination of a very comparatively hi BC bullet and at a high pressure. Though I am currently working on a 2900'/sec 200SST load, I'll not post until I have come closer to what I want - that said, without resizing larger bullets down, the 40 likely isn't in the extreme range running. If recoil is out of the equation, a pressure of 50-55K would likely be the maximum(The Badbull loads of a year ago were 49,000PSI). I think the 290 TMZ out of a very long barreled 45(like 30") or a long barreled 50 cal might be good choices. I realize the 290 TMZ has a lower published BC than the 300Barnes X FB 458(pub BC = 0.340) but just looking at the 2 bullets I don't believe it. I suspect that 2800'/sec is easily obtainable if not more. The Bad Bull might be the rifle to consider. Also, you might talk to Swinglock and see what the owner/maker might have to offer. Edge is shooting smaller caliber'd, higher BC'd bullets out of his 45 using his own milled sabots. Knowling what I know now, and if money weren't a factor, I'd talk to BB about your goal and see what they have to say also. Richard might have some thoughts here as He IS the long distance shooter on this board, as far as I know. Harley holds the long range kill record(341 yds) as far as I know also - at least for the time being  . |
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Post by CraigF on Jan 3, 2009 22:36:09 GMT -5
Steve, the guy from Swinglock told me and DW that a former Marine sniper put 7 out of 10 shots in a 7 inch circle at 1,000 yards with one of his guns. All ten were under 12" I believe. It was a 45 8 groove 18 twist and the bullet was a 250 SST. He said go 30" in length for best velocities. His 30" at under 60,000 PSI pushes a 300 grain SST sabotless to 3100 to 3200 FPS.
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Post by SW on Jan 3, 2009 22:45:24 GMT -5
Steve, the guy from Swinglock told me and DW that a former Marine sniper put 7 out of 10 shots in a 7 inch circle at 1,000 yards with one of his guns. All ten were under 12" I believe. It was a 45 8 groove 18 twist and the bullet was a 250 SST. He said go 30" in length for best velocities. His 30" at under 60,000 PSI pushes a 300 grain SST sabotless to 3100 to 3200 FPS. I would never have guessed a 250 SST but the 300SST seems more plausable. My velocity estimates were a little slow. Richard needs to take your post as a challenge! |
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 0:06:47 GMT -5
Craig, twenty inch, 10 shot, 1000yd group with the 250SST according to Tom. How anybody could do that is beyond me.
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Post by CraigF on Jan 4, 2009 9:51:51 GMT -5
Craig, twenty inch, 10 shot, 1000yd group with the 250SST according to Tom. How anybody could do that is beyond me. Thanks for the correction DW. Was I right on the 7 shot group? Do you rember the powder? |
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 9:57:00 GMT -5
Craig, twenty inch, 10 shot, 1000yd group with the 250SST according to Tom. How anybody could do that is beyond me. Thanks for the correction DW. Was I right on the 7 shot group? Do you rember the powder? I'm not sure except I know it was no bigger than a 12" target. I would say he was using a duplex of some sort. |
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 4, 2009 12:50:35 GMT -5
Amazing, what scope has that kind of elevation.
As for me I'm happy to hit the side of a big barn at 105 yards.
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Post by CraigF on Jan 4, 2009 14:00:12 GMT -5
Amazing, what scope has that kind of elevation. As for me I'm happy to hit the side of a big barn at 105 yards. What about the side of a big moose at 105 yards? ;D |
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 4, 2009 15:40:24 GMT -5
CraigF,
When Big game hunting, I put on my cape, and become a minute of a Moose, no matter the range.
Moose and Brownie, watch out, I got my cape back from the cleaners, and I'm ready to go, On the 24th, I'll be 75, If I know I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself, than maybe, I wouldn't have to spend 2 hours a day, six days a , speed walking week and lifting, and could get to be 240 or 250, and have a big smile on my face. But, my guide keeps asking when we speak, are you still 207, are still working out, if you show up out of shape the pilot, not going to bring you to camp. Oh to be 50 again.
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Post by CraigF on Jan 4, 2009 17:05:38 GMT -5
LOL!!!! ;D ;D ;D CraigF, When Big game hunting, I put on my cape, and become a minute of a Moose, no matter the range. Moose and Brownie, watch out, I got my cape back from the cleaners, and I'm ready to go |
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Post by SW on Jan 4, 2009 22:34:40 GMT -5
Go to a ballistics program, put in a 0.210 BC, 3000'/sec and 1000 yds. Look at the trajectory!! Look at the effect of just 1 mph wind variance over 1000 yds! I'd like to see the scope mounting, and meet the marine. This set- up to shoot this far seems like it would look more like a mortar than a rifle.
The Swing-lock guy seems like the real deal though. His web-site is excellent and I believe he knows what he's doing. There might have been some mis-communication somewhere.
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 22:52:38 GMT -5
Go to a ballistics program, put in a 0.210 BC, 3000'/sec and 1000 yds. Look at the trajectory!! Look at the effect of just 1 mph wind variance over 1000 yds! I'd like to see the scope mounting, and meet the marine. This set- up to shoot this far seems like it would look more like a mortar than a rifle. The Swing-lock guy seems like the real deal though. His web-site is excellent and I believe he knows what he's doing. There might have been some mis-communication somewhere. I'm pretty sure Tom told me 20" 10 shot 1000yd group. I ran the numbers at 3200fps when he told me, so I am astonished also. Since their guns shoot at 60,000 CUP, and Bad Bull is at 50,000 I would guess he had to be shooting faster than that, still there is a lot of variables with that kind of bullet. So how fast could you duplex a 250 in a 30 inch barrel at 60,000 CUP? |
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Post by CraigF on Jan 4, 2009 23:16:39 GMT -5
Go to a ballistics program, put in a 0.210 BC, 3000'/sec and 1000 yds. Look at the trajectory!! Look at the effect of just 1 mph wind variance over 1000 yds! I'd like to see the scope mounting, and meet the marine. This set- up to shoot this far seems like it would look more like a mortar than a rifle. The Swing-lock guy seems like the real deal though. His web-site is excellent and I believe he knows what he's doing. There might have been some mis-communication somewhere. I'm pretty sure Tom told me 20" 10 shot 1000yd group. I ran the numbers at 3200fps when he told me, so I am astonished also. Since their guns shoot at 60,000 CUP, and Bad Bull is at 50,000 I would guess he had to be shooting faster than that, still there is a lot of variables with that kind of bullet. So how fast could you duplex a 250 in a 30 inch barrel at 60,000 CUP? DW, do you remember what the 7 shots were? I believe the the speed on the SST was 3500 FPS. That is fast! |
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Post by SW on Jan 4, 2009 23:17:55 GMT -5
I think the BB load, prior to going to the 275BE was 49,000psi, not cup. I don't know but I'll bet very fast - depends on the wt of powder more than pressure believe it or not. 200 gs of powder getting 60,000cup would be very fast but it wouldn't matter to you once you shot it, as the recoil would have killed you.  |
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 23:21:14 GMT -5
Craig, I can't remember for sure but it was amazing whether it was 7 or 10 inches.
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Post by RBinAR on Jan 5, 2009 2:43:07 GMT -5
What would make the best long range rig with a sav. ml's, 50, 45, 40. ranges to be between 500 - 1000 yrds. Just ringing steel so I would not care about terminal balistics. Second, Is there a commercial sabot available to shoot 375's out of a 40 cal? Are you sure you want a RANGE only gun? If so this is what you should do. Keep in mind the things I recommend will make the rifle fairly useless for hunting unless you hunt where the rifle can be set on a good rest. The place to Start is with a 9.3mm 1 in 13 twist barrel with a land diameter of .358" it can shoot a .358 bullet sabot-less with no modification. The best bullet would be up to debate but either the 200 grain Hornady spire point or 225 grain Nosler Accu-Bond seem about right to me. The barrel should be as long as possible, 30 to 32 inches should work The stock should be a laminate, plastic is not heavy or stiff enough. The trigger should be tuned to 1 pound or less. I would have a chamber cut with a 7/16 (.4375") reamer the length depends on charge capacity but it should be at least 1.5". With all the above a .358" 200 grain bullet should reach 3000fps (or more) with the right load. A strictly target rifle should be prepared to shoot hot. After all vent life would be 10 shots anyway for maximum accuracy. I'll leave the choice of scope and rails to you. However they would have to be well chosen. Overall weight would be about 13 to 15 lbs. So the 225 grain bullet at 2850fps won't be an accuracy problem on a good rest. Judging from the average SD's I've seen from sabot-less rifles I see no reason this type of rifle won't shoot with many of the better cased rounds for this range. You may start a trend. The case offers a real disadvantage for target shooters. They spend endless hours checking run out, concentricity, and neck width on their cases. With no case you have none of those worries. One thing you might have to do is size bullets. It's a good thing this is a lot easier than sizing cases. A good barrel fit will be essential for accuracy. Bang em' up! What's a 1000 yards anyway? |
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Post by one eye on Jan 5, 2009 19:16:46 GMT -5
My god 1000 yard benchrest muzzleloaders, I think I heard right.
If you could get the 250gr bullet to 3000 fps, at a 1000yards it would drop 946 inches or 78 feet and a 10 mph wind would move it 295 inches or 24 feet. You would never have enough scope adjustment and I am not sure the bullet would stand up to that fps. Some of these ranges are getting out of hand !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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rexxer
Eight Pointer
Posts: 184
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Post by rexxer on Jan 5, 2009 20:57:19 GMT -5
I was thinking the 45-70 and 45-90 have thousand yard matches with iron sights. I believe they use a tang sight with adjustable peep.
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Post by edge on Jan 5, 2009 21:00:47 GMT -5
one eye, you have the long range thing wrong!
If you build a 1000 yard rifle then you cant the scope base. there are 10,20,30 or more MOA bases that aim the scope very low ( 30 or more inches at 100 yards ). That way at 1000 yards the scope is on center and only small adjustments are needed.
edge.
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 5, 2009 21:42:16 GMT -5
My god 1000 yard benchrest muzzleloaders, I think I heard right. If you could get the 250gr bullet to 3000 fps, at a 1000yards it would drop 946 inches or 78 feet and a 10 mph wind would move it 295 inches or 24 feet. You would never have enough scope adjustment and I am not sure the bullet would stand up to that fps. Some of these ranges are getting out of hand !!!!!!!!!!!!! Not quite.  You're forgetting that a popular 1000yd competitor is the .308 and a well-selected 357 bullet could certainly be competitive with it. Keep in mind that a .308 bullet rises to between 10' and 12' above line of sight at mid trajectory before dropping back to impact the target. Actually a Nosler Accubond 225gr .357 bullet has a BC of .423 which is not too remotely far from the .556 BC of the 30cal match 185gr bullets commonly used in 308s for 1000 yd competition. The Savage could easily push that bullet to 2700fps and possibly a bit more while the 185gr in the 308 is limited to about 2600. That 308 bullet at its 2600fps muzzle velocity will rise to 131" at mid point while the .357 bullet fired at a very easily achievable 2700fps would have a maximum trajectory of 156". While that is two feet higher than its 30 cal cousin, its certainly not nearly as great as OneEye indicated. Likewise the wind drift in a 10mph wind would be 115" vs 91" for the 308. The key here is picking the right bullet for the job. An XTP 200 would be outlandish, but even it would be less than half of OneEye's prediction with a max height of 402" above line of sight at max trajectory but surely no one would attempt this with an XTP!  If the 410 wads work in the 40 cal with that 225gr bullet would be a workable combo if it turns out to be accurate. If not, specially made sabots like Edge produces could probably be make to work with it. Now don't get me wrong. In a 1000 yd competition between a 10ML-II and a properly prepared 7mm Mag my money is on the 7, but there is no reason a properly prepared Savage/PacNor couldn't be a fun competitor. Wow! A 1000yd muzzleloader competition would be a thing to behold. Perhaps we could get Ozark to host it. ;D |
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Post by robhinze on Jan 5, 2009 23:28:16 GMT -5
I have access to a swage and .416 dies. what about a 300-350gr with a 5 or so olgive. I could then run these through a lee sizer to the required diameter. This could then be used either with a sabot 45 cal or sabotless 40. Let me know what diameters would be the best to start with. I'll start rounding up the the makings. I know that I have copper tubing like the BO, a J4 or J6 jacket would shoot a lot better. As for me, I would love to try/buy some Edge sabots made for my 50 shooting .375 rifle bullets.
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Post by richard on Jan 9, 2009 20:05:39 GMT -5
Well, I guess I'm "a day late and a dollar short" on this thread  I just got off the phone with Jon and he directed me here. It seems it has been pretty well hashed out! As Edge said, scopes are no problem since you use a slanted base. The problem could be that the scope is actually looking at the muzzle of the barrel. In that case you have to build an offset scope base. Yes, they do make them! Probably the most popular power shot at 1,000 yards is 24X. Too high magnification and the mirage and all the other things in the air make the target blurry. On a good day, you can up it. I have always shot fixed 24X Leupolds. A major problem would be getting a high BC bullet and then being able to keep your MV very consistent which translates to very low ES's. To give you an example....my 140 custom VLD bullet with a BC of .625 out of my 6.5 x 248 improved has a velocity of 2900 fps. A 25 fps variation in velocity will cause that bullet to be about 3.5" high or low at 1,000 yards. There would not be the selection of bullets available for the .40, .45 or .50 that could compare. Except for a "blue-bird" day, the least little breeze will be moving that bullet all over the place. Yes, it is something that might be fun to play with if you had the place to shoot that distance but from a practical stand point, you would really be Pi _ _ in' in the wind. In our competition, five shots get fired in 15 to 20 seconds and I have observed a good shooter put ten shots down range in 30 sec. Yes, single shot. and win the match with groups of 4, 5 6 inches or so. The object is to have a rifle that tracks very well on your rest set up and take advantage of the existing wind condition. Something you cannot easily do with the ML. Yes, if you had a series of good wind socks and took your time waiting for them to all be lined up alike, would help, but other than strictly a novelty, your wasting your powder ;D Richard |
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Post by dave d. on Jan 9, 2009 20:25:37 GMT -5
I have access to a swage and .416 dies. what about a 300-350gr with a 5 or so olgive. I could then run these through a lee sizer to the required diameter. This could then be used either with a sabot 45 cal or sabotless 40. Let me know what diameters would be the best to start with. I'll start rounding up the the makings. I know that I have copper tubing like the BO, a J4 or J6 jacket would shoot a lot better. As for me, I would love to try/buy some Edge sabots made for my 50 shooting .375 rifle bullets. :)robhinze,i think a good size would be .400 so they could be shot in either gun.goodluck if you decide to make some. |
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You're forgetting that a popular 1000yd competitor is the .308 and a well-selected 357 bullet could certainly be competitive with it. Keep in mind that a .308 bullet rises to between 10' and 12' above line of sight at mid trajectory before dropping back to impact the target.
I just got off the phone with Jon and he directed me here. It seems it has been pretty well hashed out! As Edge said, scopes are no problem since you use a slanted base. The problem could be that the scope is actually looking at the muzzle of the barrel. In that case you have to build an offset scope base. Yes, they do make them! Probably the most popular power shot at 1,000 yards is 24X. Too high magnification and the mirage and all the other things in the air make the target blurry. On a good day, you can up it. I have always shot fixed 24X Leupolds.