Savage Customer Service

[8ptbuk]

I would like to say hello to everyone and say that this is a great forum!!! I recently bought a stainless savage 10ML and frankly I can't hit anything with it !!! I love this gun but something has got to give. Ive shot it around 75 times and ive never got a 1.5 inch group. It averages from 2 to 4 inch group @ 100 yds. It has an extremely loose bore compared to the 3 other savml. ive been around. The load Ive been trying to shoot is 4457 at 42-47 GR. with various bullets, 300 gr. hornady's XTP,_Barnes 300 and 250 Ex._ shockwaves 250 gr._.458 Horn. with Orange sabots. I also tried a few groups with 4759 same results ! I changed the scope fron a Zeiss to a new Burris Signature series. The gun has also been glass bedded. Ive been lurking around this forum reading everything I can to help but Im running out of Ideas. Ive been shooting Muzzleloaders for 25 years but this savage has got the best of me !!! If I send this Gun back to savage will they take care of it for me Sorry for the long post. If anybody has dealt with savage on a accuracy problem please let me know how it was handled. Thanks

[Harley]

If you call Joe DeGrande at customer service, and complain insistently, I have no doubt he will authorize the return of your entire rifle in order to shoot it at the factory. He will then most likely return it to you with a newly shot target indicating a very impressive group.

This is what happened to me; however, even after the return (with a new SS barrel because the original was bulged) I was unable to come even remotely close to the test target group size. My barrel was also SS, also extremely loose, and being in the GA heat compounded the problem (although Joe swore that the SS had performed well in African heat). I finally junked the barrel and went with the .45 Pac-Nor.

I do have another .50, the blue synthetic. Its barrel is significantly tighter than the SS and shoots sub-moa at 100 yards.

So, call Joe; you've noting to lose.

Good luck.

Harley

[sagittarius]

Welcome to a great forum, 8ptbuk.

Jeez, I could have went hunting if mine had shot a 4" group. ;D
If you've read some of my posts, you will know my rifle averages only an 8" to 10" group and that's only at 50 yards.
Best group I ever shot at 50 was 5" and I thought that was pretty good considering, lol.
Not surprised a bit on Harley getting back an impressive group after sending his rifle in.
That's why I didn't bother with mine and now have a .45 Pac-Nor on order !
Best of luck with your rifle though.
If these guys can't help you, nobody can !

[DW]

If your barrel is on the loose side have you tried the Harvester Black Crush Ribs with the .458 bullets and the Harvester Red crush Rib for .452 bullets? Sabot fit is big with these guns IMO.

Have you checked to see if the front scope base is clearing the recoil lug?

Barrel floated? Which stock is on the gun?

If you are acquainted with the MLII previously, you probably know waiting between shots is critical in most cases.

Welcome to the forum.

[8ptbuk]

Thanks Guys for the Replys. Ive fixed the bases and the barrel is floated. My stock is a Camo Syn. Ive not tried the Harvester CR sabots. Ive shot all the MMP Sabots with not much successs. I don't mind having to send it back if they will stand behind it. Ive sent guns back to Knight and T/C and they took care of my problems. Never had any dealings with savage.

[tar12]

DW has given the best advice.Try the Harvesters before you send it back.

[esmd]

Definitely try the tightest sabots you can find.

[edge]

If you have "good" sabots that are too loose thry a paper patch, it might help:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage&action=display&thread=5976

edge.

[Harley]

I'd still like to focus on a primary question: If Savage test fires every rifle before shipment (I'm not certain they do, but a significant number arrive with an enclosed fired target) why do we sometimes have to go to extraordinary means even to come close to the factory claim? I remember Edge's comment that Savage tests "under controlled conditons", but that doesn't begin to answer the question.

A case in point is my own: As I reported earlier in this thread Savage replaced my SS barrel and included a test target indicating close to .50". I used the same components - including the sabot - they did but couldn't keep the shots on the paper. When I called Joe and offered a tentative speculation that perhaps Georgia's summer heat was the culprit, he told me that "many" Savage ML's had shot beautifully in Africa's even hotter temperatures. To his credit, Joe did offer to re-test my barrel, but I declined.

BTW, it has always seemed to me that most of the failure to group problems have been reported with the SS barrels, not the blue.

Harley

[bigmoose]

Joe DeGrande is a most honorable man, I doubt if he has a equal in Customer Service.

When Savage test fires your rifle, its done indoors in a firing tunnel, you would be hard pressed to equal their results.

They shot 1 1/4 inch groups with my rifle, after much playing around, it now shoots much better groups,outdoors with a broken down old shooter, but maybe RB has something to do with that ;D

[Harley]

Bigmoose, I also respect Joe DeGrande; that wasn't my point.
Also, I already noted that Savage fires under controlled conditions, but I'm not talking about equaling their results; I'm talking about comparing their .5" target to my own 6+" targets using the same components they use. Something's wrong, there.

Harley

[mike3132]

Clean it real good with some good bore cleaner like J&B.

Second check the front scope base mounting screw for being loose, (known problem). Then check it for riding up on the recoil lug, if so then grind some off the base.

Make sure the barrel is free floating and not hitting the stock.

Change the vent-liner.

Try a 250 XTP with 42 grain of 4759 in a nice snug sabot. If MMP 24 are too loose then try MMP 12. If the gun wont shoot 2" or better with this combo then call Joe. Mike

[bigmoose]

You are right, thats too big a difference.

I would call and bring that to Joe's attention, after all he's not doing the shooting, very strange

[edge]

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that Savage sets up a scope for their shots.

IMO, first shots should be done with open sights. If nothing else it will let you know of any scope issues right away.

edge.

[dougedwards]

Savage does use a scope to test any rifles that go back to the customer. Joe actually sent my 10ML with a Simmons scope on it so I could shoot it just as Savage did. Then I shipped the scope back to them.

Doug

[bigmoose]

Now thats going the extra mile. as I said Joe has no equal.

[Harley]

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions, but this is a dead issue. What I was describing all took place about a year ago. I assure you everything, all Tips and Hints, was done. I even sent the rifle to Tar12 for his own testing. I just keep making the same point: I can't reconcile Savage's firing results with my own. EOS (end of story).

Harley

[fowlplay]

Welcome 8ptbuk,

There a bunch of good advice giving already. If your barrel is loose I would definitely try those Harvester Red Sabots for a tight fit.

The tupperware stocks are also more finicky with the right torque on the pillar bolts. Do not have these bolts super tight. 25 inch pounds (snug) is all you need. Make sure the recoil lug is making contact. If not you may have to use a shim.

[8ptbuk]

I would like to thank everyone for the advice on my gun. I just got back from the range with good results !!! But a sore shoulder !!! I scrubbed the barrel good with No.9 and changed the Breech plug and it was a different gun. I had changed the vent liner earlier. The breech plug I changed had the bluing wore off the side's at various places around the outside edges. This let carbon blow back towards the threads on the breech plug. I cleaned the gun when it was new but it has never shot this good and consistent. Im going to try to post some pic's of the plug and my groups. You guys gave advice that was right on !!! Thanks again . 8ptbuk

[DW]

Nice shooting! Is the plug the only difference or did you change anything else?

[8ptbuk]

The plug was the only thing I changed today !!! I cleaned the gun when it was new but it never shot this good. Im sure a good cleaning helped some. From now on Im cleaning between 30 and 50 shots. it had about 70 to 80 on it. I hope someone can explain this breech plug thing to me ??

[whyohe]

harley im sorry you had such a bad experiance.

8ptbuck if you have questions call joe degrand at savage. he is a pleasure to deal with and he will help you any way he can. im glad you got your gun to shoot. i must be one of the few and got a SS barrel that is tight. ;D i feel lucky. i didnt have any problems when i sent mine in.

[edge]

What is different about the new plug?

Obviously the loose sabots are still loose, did you swap them out?
Is this just a spare plug that you had?
Is one clean and the other fouled?

edge.

[8ptbuk]

When I say my bore was loose it is looser than 3 other sav10ml guns that ive been around. Especially when shooting .451 diameter bullets. We use a muzzle guide on our Range Rod and on some guns you have to lightly press it in and on mine it falls in on it's own with play. As far as the breech plug goes I bought a spare from savage after buying the gun. Other than the weird markings on the edges I don't why it made that much difference. Hope somebody has a guess. Both plugs were cleaned. The reason I changed it was because the plug was all that was left !!! Thats the only reason it's not boxed up on it's way back. 8ptbuk

[edge]

When you write that you "cleaned" the breechplug what exactly do you mean...did you drill out the carbon, is one more fouled than the other?

Here are a couple of sketches:

A sketch of the breechplug with some dimensions:



A sketch of a badly fouled breechplug. If the fouling becomes bad enough the carbon crud
will take on the shape of the primer and the bolt will become very difficult to close:



edge.

[8ptbuk]

I drilled out the old one. The one that I put in today was brand new. It had no carbon in it. Both were tried with the same new vent liner. Maybe the old one did'nt seal properly ?? Just guess.

[mike3132]

Maybe cleaning the bore was the answer instead of changing the breech plug.

If I'm working on a gun and it starts to shoot off the very first thing I do is use some J&B Bore cleaner and do a good cleaning. Most of the time the gun returns to being accurate. Mike