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Post by robhinze on Jan 4, 2009 22:24:05 GMT -5
OK I am ready to jump into the sabotless camp so now what what to I do?
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 22:37:00 GMT -5
First do you have any bullets such as the Parkers to see what kind of fit they have to your bore?
Wads will be needed probably, veggie or felt, I prefer the vegetable fiber wads.
A chrony should be used IMO.
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rexxer
Eight Pointer
Posts: 184
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Post by rexxer on Jan 4, 2009 22:44:17 GMT -5
DW
How do you keep the wad from folding over or landing on edge on top of powder?
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Post by Harley on Jan 4, 2009 22:48:08 GMT -5
Assuming you already have the .45, and have done all the usual things to ensure a trouble-free performance, I think you first have to select your bullet (like DW said). I'd buy the best bullet I could find (I prefer the 275 Parker BE). Almost surely you will have to resize it, and that means a Lee bullet sizing die, probably the .448. You may or may not need an arbor press with the die because some people have resized with their standard presses. Following resizing you will, again almost surely, have to knurl the bullet for a tight barrel fit.
DW likes the veggie wads; I've used only the dry wool wads. The CCI M primer is generally accepted as preferred.
Powder: Now you have to decide if you want to shoot single based powders or duplexed powders. There are lots of people in both camps. I prefer the duplex and advise SR4759/A2015.
Here on this forum you can easily access many recommended loads to try.
Feel free to ask any and all questions.
Harley
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Post by Harley on Jan 4, 2009 22:49:50 GMT -5
Rexxer, I'll answer for DW: I've always wondered about that, too, but no longer worry about it. It just works; shove it down with your ramrod until it seats on the powder, then lean on it for a few seconds more to be certain you've compressed the powder.
Harley
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Post by DW on Jan 4, 2009 23:04:03 GMT -5
Like Lloyd said nothing to it. The wads are a little bigger than the bore so I wedge them into the bore with my finger and then I use a short starter to push it into the barrel an inch or so and then put the bullet in on top and push them home. They have always lined up parallel to the base of the bullet when I push the wad in with the short starter.
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Post by SW on Jan 4, 2009 23:12:59 GMT -5
45 cal wads fit a lot better than 50 cal wads.
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Post by RBinAR on Jan 5, 2009 1:37:59 GMT -5
DW How do you keep the wad from folding over or landing on edge on top of powder? A lot of people have asked that question. The wad will form fit the muzzle if it's for the caliber you're shooting. I start them carefully so they fit all around and then take the bullet and use it to seat them a small distance. I ram everything down at once. The bullet pushes the wad into place. I see no need to seat wad and bullet in seperate operations and if you take just a little care it's hard to mess up. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 5, 2009 6:01:56 GMT -5
With either the flat bottom of the bullet or the surface face of the jag, there is no way that the wad can tip because equal pressure is being put on the wad. It has no where to go but down and square. No worrys as long as you get it going square the 1st 1/2 inch with your fingar.
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Post by robhinze on Jan 5, 2009 13:19:19 GMT -5
Ha Harley I got you  You have assumed that I have a 45 and I do not....yet  . My question is what equipment will I need to procure to go sabot-less. I.E. Will I need to purchase a knurling, tool from Corbin? Who should I entrust my rifle to do the conversion? Just how do you guy's knurl a bullet? I have been checking the site for info but my computer skills are suspect at best. Basically just assume ;D that I am a empty jar and need the 101 version of going sabot-less...please. |
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Post by Harley on Jan 5, 2009 14:19:23 GMT -5
Sabotless 101:
1. Order the standard .45 barrel from Pac-Nor; decide whether or not to flute it and decide on a finish, blue or SS.
2. Conversion: You can do it yourself, but will need a Savage barrel nut wrench and some kind of jig to hold both the barrel and action; otherwise, find either a local gunsmith or maybe send it to our very own Richard.
3. Breech Plug: you can use the OEM that you already have or you can order a modified BP from Pete's Machine Shop; RBinAR may or may not still be in that business.
4. Use a number "C" drill bit to enlarge the BP primer pocket to accept CCIM primers.
5. "Headspace" the new barrel into the action.
6. Buy your components: bullets, wads, primers, powder.
7. Buy a Lee bullet resizing die, probably .448".
8. Either buy an arbor press or get by with a standard press for your new die.
9. Knurling: Buy two "bastard" files; staple one to your bench; hose clamp the other to a file-size board. Roll your resized bullet between them until it requires a short starter to begin ramrodding it into the barrel.
10. Work up a series of loads and go shoot. Keep good records and get back to the Board with your results.
I think you could probably have Richard do ALL your preliminary work, even have the barrel sent directly to him. For all I know Richard might do your load development while he does his own.
Harley
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Post by hillbill on Jan 5, 2009 17:16:51 GMT -5
Pulled my wagon onto the pacnor train today,
decided on a 28" barrel, for two reasons, want velocity and my friend is in process with a 28" swinglock . will be interesting to see how the two compare side by side, one thing for sure, my gun will be a whole lot heavier than his, but half the cost.
28" ss fluted super match blasted finish
Bill
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Post by DW on Jan 5, 2009 17:21:06 GMT -5
Pulled my wagon onto the pacnor train today, decided on a 28" barrel, for two reasons, want velocity and my friend is in process with a 28" swinglock . will be interesting to see how the two compare side by side, one thing for sure, my gun will be a whole lot heavier than his, but half the cost. 28" ss fluted super match blasted finish Bill Does he have the Swinglock yet? Good luck with the .45. |
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Post by hillbill on Jan 5, 2009 17:25:17 GMT -5
should have it by late spring/ early summer, he ordered almost a year ago
15 month wait when he ordered
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Post by robhinze on Jan 6, 2009 8:34:45 GMT -5
Thank you Harley for the 101. Next question...Is knurling designed to rough up a bullet to allow enough friction to get ignition of powder and too "fluff up" the bullet get enough jacket material to engage the rifling. Or is is to reduce the friction on the bearing surface to allow bullet seating....Is the bullet diameter when selected to be the diameter between the bottom of the lands or from the top of the lands.
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Post by Harley on Jan 6, 2009 8:56:24 GMT -5
Knurling is the process of "roughing" or functionally increasing the diameter of the bullet to enable enough of a bullet-to-barrel seal for ignition. The important reference is "the bottom of the lands", or the groove. If your bullet diameter equals or exceeds this you will not be able to move the bullet down the barrel. Knurling results in a softer outer jacket that should help with obturation of the bullet. BTW, "obturation" is just a convenient way of saying the bullet is forced into the lands for a seal. I think, but am not cerain, that you are limited to bullets of .450 - ~.452 diameter, that the .458 bullets will not reliably resize for the .45. Not sure, though. When I resize .452 bullets I first run them through a .450 die, then the .448. Don't know that this is necessary, but is easier than making the bigger jump.
Harley
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 6, 2009 9:49:19 GMT -5
Thank you Harley for the 101. Next question...Is knurling designed to rough up a bullet to allow enough friction to get ignition of powder and too "fluff up" the bullet get enough jacket material to engage the rifling. Or is is to reduce the friction on the bearing surface to allow bullet seating....Is the bullet diameter when selected to be the diameter between the bottom of the lands or from the top of the lands. You never stated where you will hunt and what the requirements there are. If your state does not restrict MLs to 50 or 45 caliber, then your best choice will be the 40 cal. With it you will not have to resize bullets for sabotless, you will only have to knurl them a bit. That is a 10sec operation rolling them between a couple files. The files can be had for only about $5 bucks at your local hardware store. There are more bullets to choose from with the 45, but they have to be sized to fit. Special dies are required as well as the press and that is an additional cost/complexity. |
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Post by Harley on Jan 6, 2009 13:48:34 GMT -5
Chuck, you are right to point out the choice available between .45 and .40. Because I shoot .45 that's what came to mind for me when the sabot-less question was asked.
Harley
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Post by hillbill on Jan 6, 2009 21:25:14 GMT -5
Ok guys, have started the gathering process, Wheeler wrench, 45 spinjag & starter, calling Lee tomorrow to order dies. Question, will my rock chucker press size bullets without difficulty? or do I need an arbor press?
thanks for the help guys, Bill
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Post by DW on Jan 6, 2009 22:01:52 GMT -5
Ok guys, have started the gathering process, Wheeler wrench, 45 spinjag & starter, calling Lee tomorrow to order dies. Question, will my rock chucker press size bullets without difficulty? or do I need an arbor press? thanks for the help guys, Bill I size .452's on mine, try it then decide for yourself. |
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Post by Harley on Jan 6, 2009 22:51:05 GMT -5
Hillbill, if DW can resize .452's on his Rock Chucker, you should be able to do the same. If you can't, or if it seems like too much effort, you can buy a one ton arbor press for about $70. A decent brand is Palmgren.
Harley
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Post by robhinze on Jan 7, 2009 23:13:22 GMT -5
Does pac-nor chamber the barrel for the bp? If they do would it be advised to have them ream out a chamber the length of an average powder charge.
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 8, 2009 11:05:03 GMT -5
Does pac-nor chamber the barrel for the bp? If they do would it be advised to have them ream out a chamber the length of an average powder charge. Just asking for problems. Then you have possibility of a bullet that was pushed down the barrel in contact with the lands that might lose that contact at seating. |
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Post by PPosey on Jan 8, 2009 15:49:45 GMT -5
No chamber needed. You can vary your loads and not worry about it.
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You have assumed that I have a 45 and I do not....yet 
. My question is what equipment will I need to procure to go sabot-less. I.E. Will I need to purchase a knurling, tool from Corbin? Who should I entrust my rifle to do the conversion? Just how do you guy's knurl a bullet? I have been checking the site for info but my computer skills are suspect at best. Basically just assume ;D that I am a empty jar and need the 101 version of going sabot-less...please.
