New to smokeless - PAC NOR BARRELS

[sorefingers]

I am new to the forum and to smokeless muzzleloaders but not to black powder muzzleloading. I have been reading alot on the forum and have some general questions. First of all I am strongly considering buying a savage muzzleloader but I want to make the right decisions for my application. I live in Iowa and we have a minimum caliber requirement for deer hunting of .45 . I have been reading alot of posts on the pac nor barrels available for the savages. I am wondering if I would purchace a new savage and a pac nor barrel in .45 caliber would this be the best choice for long range shooting? Also on the pac nor barrels do you still have to use a sabot? Because what I have gathered is that without a sabot you can shoot extreme velosities without sacraficing accuracy due to the sabot failing nor do you have to worry much about difference in ambient temperatures. Or can you shoot sabotless bullets in a standerd savage barrel? What I am trying to accomplish is , to put together a 500yd gun with minimal drop in trajectory. I have shot my encore and had 3.5'' groups at 350 yds but with alot of lobbing. Anyone with suggestions or comments I am all ears. I just want to say that I don't plan to shoot all my deer at 500yds and would not attempt if I was not profecient with my weapon, but if the oppertunity presented itself I could be ready.

[mike3132]

I shot another members .45 Pac Nor with 60grns of N120 and a 195 Barnes in a Harvester blue sabot in 1.01 group @ 200 yards. If the gun is for hunting mainly I would shoot sabots. The only time you have to wait between shots is when its warm or on the range. Either one will work but 500 yards is a mite long for most hunting situations. Many have great results at 300 yards with the .50 factory barrel with the right load or the .45 Pac Nor.

I suggest you read more and then make you own choice as both will work but the .45 does have the edge at long distance. Mike

[wilmsmeyer]

Check out some ballistic charts using a bullet of your choice and a speed you can likely attain. Then assume that it will shoot great. You will find that not only is 500 yds still a "lob" but a little whisp of wind will take your bullet completely off a broadside deer.

Not sure anybody could ever be "ready" for a shot that long with this gun.

[bigmoose]

500 yards shots, forget about a muzzleloader. Get a 300 Ultra Mag, with a 180gr. bullet, it a great shooter, even at 500 yards.

[SW]

Jan 5, 2009 22:50:22 GMT -5 sorefingers said:

I live in Iowa and we have a minimum caliber requirement for deer hunting of .45 .

I am wondering if I would purchace a new savage and a pac nor barrel in .45 caliber would this be the best choice for long range shooting?

Also on the pac nor barrels do you still have to use a sabot? Because what I have gathered is that without a sabot you can shoot extreme velosities without sacraficing accuracy due to the sabot failing nor do you have to worry much about difference in ambient temperatures.

What I am trying to accomplish is , to put together a 500yd gun with minimal drop in trajectory.

I have shot my encore and had 3.5'' groups at 350

I like the 40 cal barrel but 45 or larger is what you will need to use
I wouldn't purchase a new Sav with the plan of getting a 45 cal barrel and then the other mods you would want to do. Cost would exceed $1000 and there would likely be better routes to take. IMO.
In a 45 PacNor, you can use re-sized 45 cal bullets and shoot sabotless and get excellent accuracy but shouldn't expect velocities any higher, or even quite as high, as in the 50 cal barrel. Essentially the same velocity and possibly somewhat better accuracy than a 50 cal. That said, we are comparing accuracies of a custom barrel with a factory barrel. A custom 50 cal PacNor barrel might easily equal the 45 PacNor sabotless. Saboted in the 45 you can now shoot 40 cal bullets from 2600-2800+'/sec. This is what I prefer generally to use in a 45 even though I have 2 dedicated 45 cal sabotless ML-2s. Temp sensitivity is likely not much different sabotless vs saboted unless the temps are high(80+) and even then many of us don't have sabot problems.
I'm working on a 400 yd load and am not sure I can get what I really feel would be adequate - 350 - yes but 400, maybe just too much trajectory and x-wind effect. 500yds for deer hunting would likely require a Bad Bull type of rifle to come close. Swinglock might also be of help, as would RB and Richard(both are on this board).
My suggestion, send your Encore to SMI or RB, if he would do it, and get 28-29" 45 cal barrel with no slower than 22" twist. This would be cheaper and better IMO. Both SMI or RB could help accuratize it and Bulberry(in Utah) does really serious accuratization of Encores as does JD Jones.
Summary, you could likely shoot 275 BEs 2400-2500'/sec and 195 Barnes/200SSTs at >2800'/sec out of the Encore.
Hope this gives some insight.

[ChrisChampion]

I think if someone wants to shoot 500 yds, (even 400 for that matter), at paper with this gun that they should by all means go for it. Shooting at game at those distances is a different story. An MOA load from the bench is a 5" group at 500 yds. IMHO, I would never shoot a deer at 100 yds if all I could hold from the bench was a 5" 100 yd group so I would never shoot at one at 500 yds with an MOA load. But thats just me.

[edge]

Wind will certainly be your biggest obstacle assuming a MOA shooter at that distance.

If I could guarantee 90% of my shots would fall in a 5 inch target and I have enough energy then I'd pull the trigger!

If you shoot a 300 grain BO at around 2500 fps your bullet will get there with aver 1000 ft/lbs of energy so that is not a problem.

A 10 mph crosswind will push the bullet about 44 inches at 500 yards so you probably need a Kestral wind station and a PDA with good software

The problem is the BC of most any bullet that you are likely to shoot will be fairly low and the wind will get you most of the time.

There are plenty of folks that shoot game well past 1000 yards, but they don't shoot "bricks" either



edge.

[chuck41]

Take the first step and get yourself that Savage. Try it with available sabots using 45 and 40 cal bullets first then decide if you want to go to the Pac-Nor. If your state requires a 45 then the 45 Pac-Nor ultimately will be your choice. It should shoot lights out with the 40 cal bullets using sabots.

If you really want that much range, get the longest barrel possible. A 30" barrel will be very front heavy and exceedingly clumsy to carry around, but will get the best ultra long range performance and 3000fps from it with 200gr bullets would not be that difficult.

Personally, I would have my reservations about shooting at game at 500yds with anything. Keep in mind, 500yds is well over a quarter of a mile!! That bullet is going to have to be pointed about 4 feet above the animal with the best of 40 cal bullets, and the wind drift in a 10mph wind will be about two feet! The "Bad Bull" at three times the price, would fair no better. But different strokes for different folks.

[bigmoose]

AMEN

[lc]

Get a smokeless 28"to 30"45 cal barrel for your encore ! I think SMI could do it for you.It would be shorter than a savage & you already have it,

[dougedwards]

Just remember guys that at one time shooting at anything 200 yards away with a muzzleloader was just unheard of and considered reckless. I don't blame the guy for setting a goal.

Sorefingers.........what you are proposing would definitely be a feat in itself with a stock Savage 10ML but that doesn't mean it is impossible to achieve. As said the wind would be the greatest obstacle to accurately shooting out to 500 yards. A Kestrel wind meter would be a must and probably also would be a tactical type of scope. I know that some of the Swinglocks are shooting MOA out to 400 yards but I haven't heard much about 500 yards. But that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Keep thinking and asking questions. Most inventions in life started out as an idea. I like yours.

Doug

[wilmsmeyer]

I posted earlier. This is what I mean.....

Take a "High" BC bullet...300 Gr SST. BC = .25.

Launch it at a very high speed for a Savage. 2,700 fps! (optimistic)

NOW...make it group MOA or less and hold that accuracy at extended range.

A logical sight in distance would be about 200 yds. This puts you 2.4 inches high at 100 yds. At 500 yds you would be about 6 ft low!! At 25 yd increments between 450 and 550 yds there would be about 1 ft differences at each increment...or more at the top end! Never mind the wind. Never mind the rest you may or may not have.

OK...now sight in dead on at 300 yds. At 100 you would be 6 inches high....200 yds, 7 inches high. At 500 yds you will be 4 1/2 ft low. At close range you would have serious "hold-under" issues and at 500 you are still lobbing bullets.

If you are trying to be a hero and make the BIG shot...it will most likely be luck. If you are an awesome shot and your gun can shoot this load phenominally, you may actually be good enough to get one in a deer. BUT...cut the top of the heart? Center the lungs? Doubt it.

Keep it real and get closer. This gun is not a magic wand and will not even come close to being reliable at these distances. Neither is a bad bull.

I am not trying to be discouraging but I AM trying to make sure newer folks reading about the Savage do not get confused. 300 yds is still a LONG shot with these guns in capable hands. 500 yds is a prayer...and a dis-service to a noble creature unworthy of a suffering wound.

[ChrisChampion]

Well said Wilmsmeyer.

[sorefingers]

Wilmsmeyer--
I understand your views on this subject, but please go back to the final sentence in my original opening post. I WILL NOT take a shot that I am uncomftorable with. I don't have a problem with getting closer to the animal if it is an option. I have shot more deer with my bow in my past 20 years of hunting then my muzzleloader and honestly enjoy killing deer more so with my bow than the muzzleloader because of the close range encounter. However I hunt a muzzleloader season that takes place after two gun seasons (three weeks of hunting pressure) and the deer are very spooky. Honestly most of the deer I have harvested have been under 300yds, but on ocassion there is that one big buck that enters the other side of the field at 400 or 500 yards and there may be 50 plus deer between me and him so getting closer sometimes is not an option. I promice you and every member on this forum that I am not trying to make that hero shot and will never attempt it until I can do it extremely profeciently on paper, but I do think it can be done. Look back at the 1600 fps sharps that killed thousands of bison up to 1000 yards.

[jims]

sorefingers: I think on paper it can be done. The one problem I envision at long range is the animal moving after the shot. I know one can watch the body language to anticipate a move but I have had them move unexpectedly on occasion just as I shot. If that would occur at long range the bullet travel time could make for a lot of tracking. That is not being critical only my thought if the deer moved just at the shot.

[killahog]

It sounds to me like sorefingers is very sincere in his statement that he would not attempt a shot he is not confident in. I suggest you take the plunge and buy the savage and start practicing. I have no Idea if the 500 yard mark is attainable I do know one thing I have a new pac nor 45 barrel in the gun safe and I plan on shooting it out to 400 yards and from there who knows. I expect that the practice will reveal the limitations of the gun and will most likely end up with a very accurate load for a maximum effective range of 250 yards. It sounds like your encore is very accurate and you should have no trouble selling it when you find out how much fun the 10ml is.

[wilmsmeyer]

Sorefingars.

I did read your post. I can not imagine anyone being comfortable with a 500 yd shot with a Savage. Others have mentioned more variables such as TOF vs target movement.

I am a fair shot and shoot a very accurate .243 with a large scope and fine hair. I meticulously reload for it. The main work this gun does is bust woodchucks and provide fun at the range. This gun shoots a .28 BC 55 gr bullet at over 4000fps. Sighted dead on at 300 yds it is only about 16 inches low at 500 yds. On paper, I can shoot MOA out to 500 yds.

A fat chuck is about the size of a whitetails vitals. In the best conditions my "1st shot" hits at 500 yds on chucks is under 25%. Granted, I am usually very close. Follow up shots are over 50% but never guarenteed.

That little bit of wind, slight mirage and a very minor ranging error is usually the cause. Ranging that far with even the best rangefinder is subject to error in an open feild. VERY hard to "hit" the target in a feild with little reference marks. Even with yardage stakes....is that deer 10 or 25 yds past it/before it. At that range it matters. SO many times when checking out a shot attempted at a chuck, I reach the hole and then laser my truck. Sometimes the yardage was off by 50 yds! Lazoring in an open feild over 300 yds away is tough! 500-600 is practically unreliable when you HAVE to know EXACTLY the range.

Now take the same gun and keep shots in the 200-300 yd range and 1st shot hits are over 90%. No holdover/under issues and all the variables are exponetially minimized.

This is what I mean when saying that it would be tough for anyone to say that they would ever get comfortable OR confident that they could make a 500 yd feild shot. Or is it 515 yds. See what I mean?

So, when you can reliably hit a woodchuck at 500 yds with your Savage, on the first cold barrel shot, you will probably be confident in folding a deer out there too. I can't think of a member here on this board that doesn't have ALOT of work to do before they could do that.

The paper testing will be enlightening to you. Good luck and do not take what I've said as the final word. Just points to ponder as you consider your goals.

[SW]

Wilmsmeyer, that is an excellent post.

[edge]

Here is where wilmsmeyer and I agree, but for different reasons ;D

First, if you want to shoot long range then you need a rangefinder that is accurate in all conditions at least as far as you shoot! Probably that means that if you want to shoot 500 yards then your rangefinder will be called a 1000 or 1500 yard rangefinder by the manufacturer

Secondly, you will probably need tactical turrets on your scope although depending on your reticle and your ability you might be OK without spinning the knobs.

Quite honestly, IMO, drop should not be an issue for the long range shooter, if you can't accurately range it then you don't have the information that you need.
Wind and TOF are the main enemy. I am not going to lecture anyone on my version of ethics, IMO, that belongs to the individual hunter. Some folks take head shots beyond short range, some don't. Some can dope the wind and others can't. Some can pick a spot and some get caught up with buck fever.

IMO

edge.

[bigmoose]

Wilsmeyer,
Your post should be the final word, The Savage is and excellent one shot, medium big game hunting rifle.

I see folks kept referring to the Sharps buffalo Rifle, I had a magnificent custom Sharps rifle made by Sharps in Montana, a thing of beauty, I'm sure MUCH better than those made for the Buff hunters in the 1880's. Even taking into account it used iron sights, the Savage can shoot rings around it.

[dans]

I know I can't do it. I can't under field conditions shoot any of my smokeless muzzys at 500 yards and be confident of making a hit on a deer let alone in a vital area. I am sure the rifles are accurate enough but I am not up to judging the wind and the range and getting the right amount of windage and elevation to get it done. I don't believe I can do it at 400 either. Maybe 300 with a lot of practice. Just plug in your numbers in a good ballistic program and check out the the amount of drop and drift with the bullets most of us use. It is amazing how much these bullets are affected. There are shooters on this board with vast experience in long range shooting that have the ability to pull off these long shots. I am not one of them. If the big buck steps out on me at 500 yards I will just have to say "too far" and enjoy watching him. Those buffalo hunters got their deadly accurate ability by shooting at live targets and didn't care if they wounded one and it got away. They fired more shots at big game in one day then many hunters shoot in a lifetime today. Good luck in your quest, I will follow your progress with interest.

[bigmoose]

Dans,
You make an excellent point, Bullalo hunters didn't care if they hunt the animal in the heart or the butt, they would still harvest it.
I am sure that many members of this board have a great deal more hunting experience than I do, but I have some, since I have been hunting for 62 years, from 13 on, I have been lucky enough, to have hunted with some of the finest guides in the business, Ive also hunted with folks who write magazine articles and have TV shows, I can't speak for all guide, [that goes without saying] but, a Brown Bear is as big as a compact car, if you said to your guide, who you are paying a great deal of money to, that you wanting to take a shoot at a Brownie at 500 yards, he would look at you as if you were crazy, and say , NO YOUR NOT PERIOD. That I guaranty.

[dougedwards]

It really amazes me that there are some who build rifles to shoot very heavy projectiles accurately out to 1000 yards. An extreme example of this is the NRA Blackpowder Target Rifle-Longrange matches where prone marksmen shooting off sticks and projecting 550 grain cast bullets at 1300 fps without the help of telescopic sights. Of course reading the wind is the most critical element in this type of shooting and hitting the target at all 75% of the time is considered outstanding. American Single Shot Rifle Association is another entity that holds similar matches.

However even very hard recoiling calibers such as the .375 RUM can be shot very accurately out to 1000 yards and beyond with custom made rifles and with shooters who are capable. But it is all just fascinating to me. Here is some interesting reading on a debate of sorts on the subject.
opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11620&KW=what+to+get+for+375+RUM%3F&PN=9

[rexxer]

Sorefingers

To get into a Savage lam. with a pacnor barrel,decent glass,and the rest of the goodies so you can attempt longer range shooting will run you at least 2000.

If your Encore is truly capable of 3.5 "groups at 350 I would pass on the Savage. Wraping up two grand in a Savage that might not shoot any better wouldn't be worth the risk for me.

I have a super match Pacnor barrel ordered. The action will be bedded on my lam.thumhole Savage.If I can get it to shoot 5-6 inch 300 yard groups I will be very satisfied.

Good luck whatever you do! That is one sweet shooting Encore!

[petev]

sorefingers, wilms is offering very good advice, for you and me and anyone else interested in this topic. On paper and in the field are two different things. If you're asking, then you are unsure- take some targets out in your fields, and see how you do. If that goes well, maybe consider doing a penetration test at that range, since unlike a .308 or 30-06 the capability of this rifle is not really established at such a range. Just suggestions, good luck whatever you do.
"500 yds is a prayer...and a dis-service to a noble creature unworthy of a suffering wound." Proud to have a fellow N.Y.'er utter those words!

[edge]

If you can make the shot then go for it, if you can't...then don't!

If you ask a flinter about shooting 200 yards with a ML he will tell you the same things that I hear here! Personally, I use a rangefinder when the shot is somewhere around 275-300 or so and would not take a shot much past that without some good landmarks.
I see no reason that 500 yards seems outlandish, assuming that you practice at that range regularly.

I guess some folks see drop as a problem, and to some extent it is, but if you shoot at long range then it won't be, or should not be.
Bullet drop should absolutely be the least of your problems! Good optics and a good rangefinder will get you there as long as your velocities are consistent. Animal movement and wind would seem to be the make or break items!

I hope to hear more about your quest as time goes by....whether you decide to reduce that distance or you make that shot... let us know

edge.

[RBinAR]

Jan 8, 2009 22:27:57 GMT -5 edge said:

If you can make the shot then go for it, if you can't...then don't!

I see no reason that 500 yards seems outlandish, assuming that you practice at that range regularly.

I guess some folks see drop as a problem, and to some extent it is, but if you shoot at long range then it won't be, or should not be.

edge.

Things run in two lines of thought. Either side seems to extend to an extreme. When it comes to distance that is particularly the case.

I (and most of you) have heard of the story of Elmer Keith taking and making a shot at a mule deer at 600 yards, with a 44 Magnum pistol. I've also heard of noted shooters saying a muzzle loader is useless at much distance. So we have here two extremes.

As usual the truth for most of us is in the middle. I certainly don't think either Elmer Keith or the one reporting the event lied and I also don't think those who preached how limited the distance a muzzle loader shoots did either.

Personally over the years I've met many I would trust to shoot several hundred yards at game. They used a variety of weapons some used a muzzle loader. However thay also were all rather active shooters and they made sure to practice most if not every range they planned to shoot.

I'm in the camp that it can be done. But there is work to be done. Do you suppose that shot Elmer Keith took was one from the first box of shells through his 44 magnum?

I'm not a long range hunter or shooter so I don't make my post from a point of telling you how to. However I do test my rifles to 200 yards and shoot to 300. From what I know about these distances I feel that with time it's only a matter of you'll accept the challenge.