loose bore?

[jkruger]

Hi guys. Ive just been a reader up to now, gleaning valuable info. 2 weeks ago i purchased a 10ml-2 w/ lam thumhole in ss. Have had some misfires, and they usually come after a projectile feels somewhat loose going down the tube. One felt like it broke free of the rifling the last 10 in. before seating.
I used calipers to measure land to land and came up with .502. would this be considered a loose bore. I have read about knurling and also the paper patch trick. Both sound like good remidies.
Any insight would be helpful .
jk

[SW]

The problem could be the bullet/sabot combination. The supplied MMP short/250XTP should be relatively snug. If not, I'd consider returning the rifle to Savage for evaluation.

[blackhawk7204]

If your bullet felt snug or tight going down then suddenly felt loose then you have a bad or bulged barrel. Send it to Savage!

[jkruger]

This only happened once with the sabot/bullet seeming to slide freely. Amgoing to try the supplied bullets this afternoon.Up to this point ive been experimenting with combinations that I had in stock from my other muzzleloaders(non savage).Have sucessfully shot the savage15 out of 18 tries. Problems occured trying to use a Speer gold dot in 200 gr. w/ n110. And 300 gr. xtp w/5744 and crush rib sabot. Seemed loose.
Smokeless is all new to me as far as muzzleloading is concerned. Another learning curve.
jk

[153]

I had the same issue as you with my Savage.I sent my Savage back and did get a new barrel that was the same presurre loading all the way,and it shoots OK but not great,1-3/4 to 2" groups after have Henry and Bill Ball did some custom work,bedding,third action screw,new pillars.In hind sight I would have been better off to get a PacNor instead of trying to get the Savage to shoot good.I do not think I have read were anyone who switched to PacNor was unhappy with the way they shot.Going through four different powders,seven different sabots and at least 15 different bullets. It would have been cheaper to go PacNor to start with.The next money I spend on my Savage will be to get a PacNor 45 or 50.I know I am not a great marksman but with my 243 and 270 I can always shoot 1" or smaller groups everyday.

[mike3132]

Jan 7, 2009 8:05:15 GMT -5 jkruger said:

This only happened once with the sabot/bullet seeming to slide freely. Amgoing to try the supplied bullets this afternoon.Up to this point ive been experimenting with combinations that I had in stock from my other muzzleloaders(non savage).Have sucessfully shot the savage15 out of 18 tries. Problems occured trying to use a Speer gold dot in 200 gr. w/ n110. And 300 gr. xtp w/5744 and crush rib sabot. Seemed loose.
Smokeless is all new to me as far as muzzleloading is concerned. Another learning curve.
jk

Shoot .452 diameter bullets and mmp sabots and see how you do. if your gun mic's .502 then mmp 12 should work best. 200 grain bullets are hard to shooting because of length and weight. Stick to 250 and above. mike

[jkruger]

thanks , mike and 153. To update, I shot the supplied xtp's w/ black mmp's. Shooting sticks , 75yds. sitting at base of tree. 1 and 2 were same hole. 3,4 and 5 were stringing to the right but all together made a 3 in. group. Not sure what to make of the stringing. Was waiting 3-5 min. between shots and the fit of the sabot/ bullet was really nice and snug w/ perfect ignition each time. temp. was 35f. 2mph wind.

Dont know anything @pacnor or sabotless ?

jk

[mike3132]

The sabots that came with the gun are MMP short black high pressure, the longer version is MMP 24. If you started to string shots then most likely heat was the factor, wait longer between shots.

I suggest you stay with basic loads until you get some time behind the gun and read all you can, especially in the tips and hints section. After you feel comfortable shooting books loads then you can start experimenting. Good luck, Mike

[jkruger]

Thanks Mike, I've been a reloader for 25 yrs. and getting a big kick out of the Savage, thus far.(no pun intended) I have been reading volumes here and at randy Wakemans site, in addition to the (other forum).
Not sure what all this sabotless and pac-nor stuff is. But I like the rifle's look ,feel and fit. Just hope it starts to soot well for me once I get better glass on her.

[youp50]

blackhawk,

I have been trying to get some reliable low temperature ignition with single h4198 and 250 gr xtp. My hunting load is a TMZ 250 that is a very tight sabot fit., Tomorrow promises to be colder and I will sojourn forth with paper patches as last resort. Some starter powder,too.

The first time I tried the 250 xtp in a trimmed hph24 sabot over 70 gr H4198 in a stock .50 barrel I achieved a whopping 231 fps. I followed with a 250 TMZ and there was an unfamiliar ease of loading half way down.. I know that that little poot and 231 fps did not damage my barrel. The TMZ clocked at just under 2500 fps which is normal for my gun.

I believe that some how the unburned powder slicked things up a bit. Subsequent loading pressures are normal.

Now when I get one of these little poots I will patch the barrel, one wet two dry, and pop a couple of primers.

[jkruger]

is the tmz 250 a .452 projectile? I'm not familiar w/ it.

[youp50]

jk,
Happy Birthday

The TMZ appears to be designed for Muzzle loaders by Barnes. I mike them at .450. Knight markets the ones I have as an "Ultimate Slam Series tm" They are all copper, boat tail, polymer tipped bullet that comes with a sabot. The boat tail creates some problems for regular sabots. Many ML II's will not shoot them accurately. Some guys use different sabots and put a small washer under the bullet to square up the base for the sabots of choice. My ML and I like them a lot. For me they load very hard. The tight sabot fit and long bullet allow me to use H4198 in cold weather successfully.

Some time ago a supply house had them on sale. I am pretty sure ESMD was the one that brought it to the attention of the board. I bought 90 of them, not knowing if they would work. I wish I had bought many more. They are running about 25 bucks plus shipping for 20 now.

[rexxer]

HI jk

Your sabot bullet fit must be pretty tight tight or you will have miss fires. Calipers might not give you a very good reading on bore size. Like the others said,stick with book loads starting out. The sabot and bullet combination that came with your gun are probably a good start. With gun butt on bathroom scale I would try to obtain at least40 pounds of loading force,50-60 even better.

I would also find a bench,sand bags,rifle rest to really get an idea of group size. Shooting sticks ,truck hoods might be fine to practice off of but testing of loads need to be done off a solid base!

I agree with Mike ,stringing of shots probably not long enough wait times.

[wilmsmeyer]

Forget sitting on the ground and shooting in an improvised feild situation off of sticks. At least for now. Get on a bench with some bags and do your testing. Then report back.

Eliminate the variable of timing your shots and timing the "wobble" that is apparent when taking a feild stance from stix.

[jkruger]

I used the sticks today because of the rain. I was to lazy to get the shooting bench and bags out only to get everything soaked. But I was persistent enough to burn some powder up.
youp50 thanks for the birthday greet. Trying to forget how fast time is going.
Good advice wilmsmeyer. Next time thats what I intend to do. Going to buy more xtp's tomorrow.
xtp's are way cheaper than the others . That has more appeal to me.

jk

[richard]

Jkruger........Keep track of the dimensions for your bullet/sabot combinations. When you find one that gives you that nice tight fit, make note of it. Then try to make all your other combinations similar dimensions. .001" makes a big difference in fit. As was mentioned, using a caliper to try to determine your bore size is not the best way. If you check Brownells catalog/ on line, they sell a product called Cerrosafe. Almost like lead but melts at 190F. Push a patch in your barrel from the breech end and leave it about an inch from the muzzle. You can melt Cerrosafe in a tin can over your stove or use a heat gun, or Benz-O-Matic. Pour it in. When it solitifies, push it out with the patch on the rod. Allow it to set for and hour and then take your measurements. (It initially shrinks for removal and after an hour, expands to the true size) Good stuff. I checked at least five Savage barrels and I always come up with .506" for the lands and .511" for the grove.

When you have found the best fit, use a file to knurl bullets (it makes the fatter) that produce too loose a fit or switch to a different sabot. All the bullets I shoot, whether .452 or .458" will conform to .508" give or take a few ten thousants.
Richard

[jkruger]

great insight , thanks richard. what type of file is best for knurling.

how much fatter do i want the projectile and sabot than the bore diameter in thousanths of an inch?

jk

[richard]

This is not carved in stone.........Its a matter of personal feel which can be very subjective. As you can see from my dimensions, .506" land to land and a .508" bullet/sabot combination. This is allowing for the tightness to "squeeze" plastic from the sabot into the groves. I also use a little minor cleaning proceedure after each shot where I put four drops of Rem. bore cleanear (equally spaced) on a 2x2" patch and run it in and out .....then a dry patch in and out. This gives me a smoother more consistent feel from shot to shot. Just my opinion.
Richard