Johnc
Six pointer
Posts: 81 
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Post by Johnc on Jan 12, 2009 10:26:58 GMT -5
Check out the new Dual Port Savage action. www.savagearms.com/BreakingNews121908-2.htm I have been thinking for quite some time that flexing or the ML-II action could be contributing to scope failures. Do the scope rings get closer together for an instant under heavy recoil due to no support at the top of the loading port. I think yes. I didn't come up with an easy solution but it sure looks like the Dual Port would eliminate the flexing if it is, in fact, a real problem. John |
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rexxer
Eight Pointer
Posts: 184
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Post by rexxer on Jan 12, 2009 12:29:17 GMT -5
Do people have more scope failures with the two piece mount?
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Post by youp50 on Jan 12, 2009 13:29:53 GMT -5
Very good questions, to them I would like to add: If you had a scope failure was it on a 'tupperware' stock? If it was on a 'tupperware' stock, was the magazine well filled in? If it was filled in what did you use?
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Johnc
Six pointer
Posts: 81
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Post by Johnc on Jan 12, 2009 20:42:13 GMT -5
I don't have a one piece mount but would like to know if any movement or "fretting" is evident between the mount and receiver on a one piece. All I have is a lot of questions.  No answers. John |
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rexxer
Eight Pointer
Posts: 184
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Post by rexxer on Jan 12, 2009 21:27:04 GMT -5
There was a video about a week back showing recoil of a .50 cal. I was surprised at how much flex is involved. It looked like the bell could even hit the barrel. With these hard kickers it might be possible for a one piece mount to beef up the action area. I would of thought the muzzle loader would be easier on scopes due to the breech plug taking the blunt of the recoil instead of the bolt. I guess I'm wrong on that one!
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Post by CraigF on Jan 12, 2009 22:27:30 GMT -5
I think that a one piece base would stiffen up the action, at least as far as the scope is concerened. However, Rifleman's Ziess AO failure was one a very quality one piece base.
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Post by DannoBoone on Jan 12, 2009 22:45:38 GMT -5
Check out the new Dual Port Savage action. www.savagearms.com/BreakingNews121908-2.htm I have been thinking for quite some time that flexing or the ML-II action could be contributing to scope failures. Do the scope rings get closer together for an instant under heavy recoil due to no support at the top of the loading port. I think yes. I didn't come up with an easy solution but it sure looks like the Dual Port would eliminate the flexing if it is, in fact, a real problem. John There ya go, dave d.! Use one of these actions for your next build instead of some worn out 700! ;D ;D Seriously.....if the scope rings get closer together for an instant during recoil, wouldn't there be immediate harm to the scope which would, at the very lease, cause a POI change after one shot? |
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 13, 2009 0:45:20 GMT -5
If it was flexing too much you would see sheared off mount screws if you were using a one-piece mount and it would be putting a bind on the scope if you had a two-piece set-up. Also a lot would depend on the bedding of the action and even if the recoil lug was square (I won't yank the chain on that goat any farther). Barrel weight would also be a factor. With the benchrest crowd before custom actions sleeving the action was popular, basically pressing a 3/8"or 1/4" thick pipe over the action and then making the appropriate cuts. You strengthened the action and increased bedding area. With weight being added it was a drawback and now there are numerous custom actions so it kinda faded. The rage or latest fad now is "tube guns" which has kinda brought it back,  Maximum strength with the least amount of weight plus the recoil goes in a straight line. The action section is a aluminum tube that a SA Rem 700 action is pressed/glued into. Most of the other parts are off the shelf AR parts. Here is a Indiana legal pistol,  You know a Remington and a Savage action are close to the same diameter, hmmmmmm. www.tubegun.net/Of course there are some one-piece mounts that strengthen up the action like the Farrell G-Force that will add more strength then a regular one-piece. Myself I'm hooked on one-piece mounts and will be switching all my rifles over. |
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Post by youp50 on Jan 13, 2009 5:49:13 GMT -5
Just another question I have no answer for. What do you suppose caused the 'ring marks' or 'mounting marks' on scopes after they have been on a firearm?
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Johnc
Six pointer
Posts: 81
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Post by Johnc on Jan 13, 2009 11:33:17 GMT -5
rossman40, You sure do come up with a lot interesting and informative things on this board. Thanks The flexing that I imagine is a very small amount. Without a scope installed and only rings I am thinking a decrease in top of ring to top of ring dimension decrease might be maybe .005' - .025". The force surely would not break screws or even show any wear but would try to flex the scope tube and eventually could damage scope internals? I know why I thought about this a couple years without posting until now. I even have myself confused, maybe?  |
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 13, 2009 19:54:59 GMT -5
One thing shooting the 10ML has showed me or more like reinforced, is that when you up the recoil, scope mounting becomes more critical. I would have to agree that there would be some action flex, how much would vary from rifle to rifle. A lot of variables like what I mentioned before and if you want to measure between the top of the rings even ring height would be a factor. You can minimize the action flex by bedding the action and recoil lug, make sure the lug is square and play with action torque. As far as transferring the effects to the scope you can try by going to a one-piece base which will keep the rings on the same plane. If your really into two-piece bases the Burris Signature Zee rings with the plastic inserts may give enough not to transfer the flex to the scope. Of course a scope with a strong tube will help.
As far as marks on the scope tube from the rings a light even mark may just mean not enough grip on the tube which could be aggravated by action flex. If it is a dent or uneven then you have a ring alignment issue or concentricity which lapping would cure. Of course you could have just tightened the snot out of the rings and crushed the scope tube. Then there is the Catch 22, if your action flexing is the cause of the scope shifting in the rings if you take measures to stop it you run the risk of the flex being transferred to the scope tube and causing damage inside the scope. A group of us got together and discussed this problem and one of the guys was experimenting with a dielectric paint (kind of rubbery when dried). After he laps the rings and knocks off the sharp edges he applies a coat of this paint to the ring bore. Of course the heaviest kicker he has done this with was a .338 LM but so far so good.
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Johnc
Six pointer
Posts: 81
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Post by Johnc on Jan 14, 2009 6:34:05 GMT -5
I agree that a one piece base is best and I plan to replace at least one. I lap my rings and think that a 240 finish grabs the scope well. I think any ring without an insert needs to be lapped. The rings on My Sako have the inserts and I like them.
"Lead Sled" - I think action flex would be increased if the rifles rearward travel is blocked. Maybe this is why I have heard them referred as "scope killers"?
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No answers.
