|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jun 28, 2004 13:06:17 GMT -5
I would like to put up a [glow=red,2,300]HOT/FAST[/glow] load data table over on the SAV10ML site and am looking for load data.
I will (of course) make a strong case about the use/safety ;D of such loads. And comment about "each ML-II being different" (some Ml-II's wont shoot the same loads as good as others.) This will most likely be a reference to what the ML-II can do up at the high end. I haven't done this yet do to time constraints on my end, and I was watching the evolution of the duplex loads.
So If you have any load data you can share, with speeds over 2400 fps please send them to me and I will build the table. I'll need the bullet specs, the sabot type, sub base or not (and if so what type), powder type/ amount, primer type, and outside temperature, Along with the fps. Any other coments you might have.
(did I forget anything?)
Thanks, Randy Dunn W/ny
|
|
|
Post by Douglas Blair on Jun 28, 2004 13:20:27 GMT -5
Randy, You know what I am shooting...52 grains of LIL'gun under a 28 gauge base wad with a wonder wad between it and the sabot which is a Hornady high pressure topped with a 240-grain XTP Mag bullet. The primer used is a Winchester standard 209.
I'm not sure what the velocity is but would think it is in the 2,600 fps range. ;D
|
|
|
Post by 2Savage on Jun 28, 2004 15:28:42 GMT -5
Randy, I think you'll also need to collect vent liner type-1 hole or 3.
|
|
|
Post by RBinAR on Jun 28, 2004 15:45:39 GMT -5
8-)Randy I have a whole series of loads with the three hole vent liner that can be released. I think the safety of these loads speaks for themselves as none require a sub-base and all shoot fairly well in very warm weather.
My question is do you want them posted here or sent to you in e-mail? Most have been discussed on this board in the past but not as a group. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jun 28, 2004 16:02:10 GMT -5
E mail them to me, I'll put them all together and build a searchable table like the others over on SAV10ML.com
Anyone else?
Randy
|
|
|
Post by mamaflinter on Jun 28, 2004 16:28:31 GMT -5
I'll need the bullet specs, the sabot type, sub base or not (and if so what type), powder type/ amount, primer type, and outside temperature, Along with the fps. Any other coments you might have. (did I forget anything?) Thanks, Randy Dunn W/ny Randy yes you did forget one very important technicality. How far into next week did the person get kicked?
|
|
|
Post by Loggy on Jun 28, 2004 18:09:05 GMT -5
Great idea Randy! It would be nice to know like said one hole or three hole vent liner plus whether or not sub-base used. Such data would be extremely useful especially for some of us new 10 ML guys for sure. Loggy
|
|
|
Post by ourway7 on Jun 29, 2004 5:18:55 GMT -5
Great idea However it has been my experience velocity doesn't make accuracy. I have never had to go with extreme velocity as I only hunt Deer. Never had a savage till now.Have numerous muzzeloaders ::)Have great results with triple seven. Will try the savage out as soon as I mount the scope. Not sure what loads to try. , That why I am so impressed with this sight, everyone seems to be very knowledgable, as very helpful. Thanks Lou
|
|
|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jun 29, 2004 7:50:01 GMT -5
Great idea However it has been my experience velocity doesn't make accuracy.... (snip)... Thanks Lou I Agree, the loads have to be accurate, and I assume they are, or why record the data. If the shots are all over the paper the load isn't a good load and a waist of time. Some of us have had great results with this system at the high end of things. AND we were very careful and took our time testing and recording information. We've found allot of things that don't work and allot of things that do. This load information will come with a reminder that you CANT just drop in this load and expect it to work in your ML-II. It most likely wont. You need to start allot lower and slowly (much time involved here) work up, while looking at everything that happens. Once things get squirrelly, STOP. I've had 6 Savage ML's in the last few years and NONE of them shoot the same at the high end (remember I'm talking about over 2600fps), Some don't like hot fast loads at all. A couple shoot great at the upper end. That's the trick. Don't expect a load from this chart (when and if it's done) to work in your gun the same way. I've recorded about the same speeds with 47 gr's of powder that it takes the next guy to reach with 50 grains of the same powder bullet and sabot. At the upper end (or as far as I'll go) even the slightest difference in gun/weather/sabot will make the difference in a good load or a useless one. There has been some discussion "off line" on how we should handle and share this information. Those of us doing work at the upper end look at safety first, nothing is more important. This is information from long hours at the range, recording every step. It wont be a guide to fast loads. I'm becoming hesitant to put the chart up because of this. Any opinions about this are welcome. Randy Dunn PS: Yes we should include ventliner type as a factor also.
|
|
|
Post by Billy on Jun 29, 2004 9:34:31 GMT -5
Randy, Your chart is a great idea and I hope you don't change your mind about putting it up. It would be a waste to not share the results of all the hard work you guys have done. I'm sure you would include a sufficient disclaimer with the information. Billy
|
|
|
Post by thumper on Jun 29, 2004 18:04:23 GMT -5
randy, i would love to see this load chart ,i think most of us would. i know some of these guys have got a lot of work invested in these loads. sharing them would be greatly appreciated . thanks to all
|
|
|
Post by grouse on Jun 29, 2004 19:03:41 GMT -5
I Agree, the loads have to be accurate, and I assume they are, or why record the data. If the shots are all over the paper the load isn't a good load and a waist of time. Some of us have had great results with this system at the high end of things. AND we were very careful and took our time testing and recording information. We've found allot of things that don't work and allot of things that do. This load information will come with a reminder that you CANT just drop in this load and expect it to work in your ML-II. It most likely wont. You need to start allot lower and slowly (much time involved here) work up, while looking at everything that happens. Once things get squirrelly, STOP. I've had 6 Savage ML's in the last few years and NONE of them shoot the same at the high end (remember I'm talking about over 2600fps), Some don't like hot fast loads at all. A couple shoot great at the upper end. That's the trick. Don't expect a load from this chart (when and if it's done) to work in your gun the same way. I've recorded about the same speeds with 47 gr's of powder that it takes the next guy to reach with 50 grains of the same powder bullet and sabot. At the upper end (or as far as I'll go) even the slightest difference in gun/weather/sabot will make the difference in a good load or a useless one. There has been some discussion "off line" on how we should handle and share this information. Those of us doing work at the upper end look at safety first, nothing is more important. This is information from long hours at the range, recording every step. It wont be a guide to fast loads. I'm becoming hesitant to put the chart up because of this. Any opinions about this are welcome. Randy Dunn PS: Yes we should include ventliner type as a factor also. Randy Dunn, I am a proud owner of a Savage. I totally disagree with you posting these Hyper speed loads. As you stated above, all Savage Muzzleloaders are different at these high speeds. What you think is Safe, might not be in somebody else's gun. Somebody with little experience could really get hurt. Then all they might have left to say is, well Randy Dunn did it. In my opinion, keep it to yourself.
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Jun 29, 2004 19:36:11 GMT -5
go for it randy. its a very good idea. a chart will give people an idea of what to expect with hot loads, starting and stopping points. i have a few loads that are not for the meek at heart to share. mike ;D
|
|
|
Post by 2Savage on Jun 30, 2004 9:37:37 GMT -5
Your current charts have been extremely valuable. Go ahead and post the new one. Put the standard disclaimers on it and let natural selection go to work.
Montgomrey Gentry said it pretty well "Hell yeh, crank it up!"
|
|
|
Post by DannoBoone on Jun 30, 2004 20:36:14 GMT -5
Randy, it's a fantastic idea -- don't get cold feet from the effects of "nay-sayers". Just inform everyone to the site that all loads are "MAXIMUM LOADS", and that anyone attempting such loads should start off 10-15gr lighter with any given bullet. Similar are the instructions of any responsible CF reloading guide (and call your info "guide"). And DEFINATELY include info as to whether the loads were used with the one-hole or 3-hole vent liner.
A very big THANK-YOU for your efforts!!
|
|
|
Post by Loggy on Jun 30, 2004 20:56:29 GMT -5
I think the White Underlined Strip at top of this Message Board covers any load info posted here. Dont really see any exposures for posting such.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jun 30, 2004 21:20:55 GMT -5
I think the White Underlined Strip at top of this Message Board covers any load info posted here. Dont really see any exposures for posting such. I certainly AGREE about how it pertains to legal liability, BUT I am much more concerned about the Fish & Game Departments using this information against us! There already HAVE been questions on this topic from those NOT on this message board!!! I will bet that every Traditional group will carry a copy to the Game Department meetings in an attempt to outlaw Smokeless OR keep it outlawed. Messages "POSTED" on the internet mean ZERO, but a published load chart made as professionally as Randy has in the past sure looks official. Add any disclaimer you want, but it will be easy for the Traditional boys to bypass that. Ask Michael Moore how effective half truths can be :-) edge.
|
|
|
Post by Loggy on Jun 30, 2004 21:47:44 GMT -5
edge : You may have a point there for some States but in my state of PA such data may even have a positive effect. In PA they are liberalizing more types of ML's being legal all the time. Just 2 years ago it was open V sighted flintlock and patched rb's and that was it. Now we have opened a ML season allowing scoped in-lines plus in the flintlock season we can now use conicals instead of only rb's. They want more deer killed plus the almighty $ for those xtra ML Licenses is a bottomline feeder for sure. My guess is other states aint going to restrict anything that is a ML. There are some old regulations out there but they will eventually be redacted or modified to meet modern day economic realities.
Loggy
|
|
|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jul 1, 2004 7:18:31 GMT -5
Edge has a good point, I've received e-mails from some fish and game department employees asking for the HOT/FAST load data. That's got me on the fence about posting it. I Feel somethings up. I've received many e-mails about this from all over in the last few days. Still unsure on how to handle it. Been talking to some pros about it also. Any lawyer's in the group here? Is there a way we can protect our selves and our useing Smokless and still share the data? We need to think about this. Randy Dunn
|
|
|
Post by mamaflinter on Jul 1, 2004 9:26:37 GMT -5
Randy have you given any more thought to what Doug & I suggested to you? There is a way that can be done as I've seen it incorporated into a website. I just don't know how to do it myself.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 1, 2004 9:51:10 GMT -5
Randy,
Is there an AUTOMATIC copyright on materials that you put on your website?
A governmental agency may not be willing to incorporate copyrighted material into their "official" minutes if they do not have the authors express permission to do so. Once again we may want an attorney to chime in :-)
edge.
|
|
|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jul 1, 2004 10:35:14 GMT -5
Mamaflinter, Yes I know I can do that, but I'm wondering if I need to go that far.
Edge, Mamaflinter, Doug, Wasn't one of the old regulars (about a year ago) an attorney? (I cant remember who it was) Is it right for me to copyright this stuff when most of the data comes from everyone? It's the groups data, I just give it a home.
You three want to chat at noon today about this?
Randy
|
|
|
Post by edge on Jul 1, 2004 10:50:17 GMT -5
Randy,
I am pretty sure that "intellectual-property", copyright protection is automatic!
If you were to include in the document, perhaps in a few places, that reproducing...Blah,Blah,Blah.. in anyway is prohibited, it MAY inhibit OFFICIAL use of the document!
I am getting ready for a meeting now but will try to make the chat.
edge.
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Jul 1, 2004 11:08:15 GMT -5
randy, why don't you email them back and ask them why they want this information. then you can make a decision on how to handle it. mike
|
|
|
Post by mamaflinter on Jul 1, 2004 11:49:00 GMT -5
I'm in the chatroom now in another browser.
Mike, (now keep in mind this is just my opinion). But if someone was up to unscrupulous intentions, do you really think he/she would admit to what they intended to do with the information in an email?
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Jul 1, 2004 15:36:35 GMT -5
mama,
lets see if they will tell randy what they want it for. I'm sure they are not going to publish it in their hunting guides. its obvious to those that follow this board that the 10ML can be shot at speeds equal to center-fire rifles. most likely some of the dnrs are going to ban smokeless powder in mzloading season because of this and want this information to prove their point. mike
|
|
|
Post by Randy Dunn on Jul 1, 2004 16:14:55 GMT -5
snip....most likely some of the dnrs are going to ban smokeless powder in mzloading season because of this and want this information to prove their point. mike Mike, That has been a major part of our discussion about this off line. That and Safety. We still need to go over this with several folks before we decide to post it. We very well may not. I really cant say at this point. We will let everyone know as soon as we do. On one hand we'd like to share the data, on the other hand we are "under the microscope" and could cause trouble for those folks trying the get smokeless into there state. That's exactly what we DONT want to happen. So we're looking at everything we can, to help everyone. And not ruin it for someone else. Randy Dunn
|
|
|
Post by mike3132 on Jul 1, 2004 17:15:24 GMT -5
randy, the only way i think you might supply the chart is in a locked room that is pass word protected. make people agree to some sort of rules that the loads can not be used or copied by anyone other than individual people. or, just not publish it at all. if someone wants to know a hot load then they would have to ask the question on the board. either way i see trouble over the horizon. mike
|
|
|
Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 1, 2004 17:40:22 GMT -5
Well guys all I know is when some official wants something like he was asking about that really makes me think they are up to something. It could be I'm paranoid but that is only a state of heightened awareness. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Loggy on Jul 1, 2004 19:08:08 GMT -5
Well guys all I know is when some official wants something like he was asking about that really makes me think they are up to something. It could be I'm paranoid but that is only a state of heightened awareness. ;D The basic ballistic info for various powders/bullets is readily available to anyone in the Savage Gun Manual and various magazine articles and web sites.. To me its no different in someone postin some real hot 777 loads usin lighter bullets. If a couple guys experiences of squeezing out a few xtra hundred fps is going to cause various State's Game Commission authorities to outlaw the 10 ML I think maybe we should dump ours now before the market falls apart. Secondly, if the viablity of the 10 ML to maintain its status as a legal ML is that fragile, I think we are in trouble. I personally feel that aint the case at all. Like I said (in PA which I think has over 1 mllion licensed hunters and ranks somewhere in the topic 3 in the United States as far a number of hunters) the ML regulations are becoming much more liberal for sure.
|
|