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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 1, 2004 21:25:07 GMT -5
Loggy, we are talking HOT loads which are not in any manual.
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Post by Cruiser on Jul 1, 2004 23:35:05 GMT -5
Doug,
If their intention is to use a chart of "hot loads" to validate the capabilities of the ML 10, they could just use the hundreds of postings from load developers displayed on the various webs and consolidate that information into their own chart, using print outs of the postings for support. There is no way to dispell the capabilities of the Savage. I'm relatively new to the Savage world and, within one week of research, could develop a "safe" load that would meet/support any objective they wanted.
Or, they could use the information and develop their own table using a ML10. I think everyone opposed to issuing this table is being uselessly, although justifiably, paranoid. If there is a anti-Savage movement which could accomplish what you are contemplating, then they already have plenty of ammunition to accomplish their mission and disarm the Savage. I just don't think they will prevail.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 1, 2004 23:52:59 GMT -5
Edge has a good point, I've received e-mails from some fish and game department employees asking for the HOT/FAST load data. Randy Dunn  Like any other gun manufacturer, there is no one that has the authority to "approve" loads for Savage product except Savage Arms themselves. Referring them directly to the manufacturer is the only sensible path. I've got some 2700 fps + + + loads for the Thompson Encore and the Knight Elite, that's no joke. Any DNR's want them?   |
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Post by edge on Jul 2, 2004 0:10:15 GMT -5
SNIP I've got some 2700 fps + + + loads for the Thompson Encore and the Knight Elite, that's no joke. Any DNR's want them? OK, perhaps the number is 2700 fps! If there ARE legit loads for the encore, then list these loads AND these rifles too on the Savage data chart! I think that as long as the OTHER manufacturers advertising and products list these same loads, then there should be no harm to the Savage. BUT, if WE collectively advertise loads that beat BP loads by 500 fps, then I think we will have real problems. edge. |
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 2, 2004 1:23:16 GMT -5
BUT, if WE collectively advertise loads that beat BP loads by 500 fps, then I think we will have real problems. We all have short memories, or perhaps it is the competition that has a very SELECTIVE memory? Anyone can pop open the 2001 Lyman BP handbook, and find a 120 gr. Pyrodex Select load that hits an average of 2418 fps (p.161). It was T/C that loudly compared their Encore to a 7mm Remington Magnum. In 2000, Ian McMurchy published Oeher 43 and 35 P 5 shot strings averaging 2639 fps through a Knight .45 Super Disc. It apparently no longer suits the purposes of Knight and T/C, so the magnum mythology is now muted from where it was just a couple of years ago. Opinion: the center fire business that is the core business of Savage Arms has largely been a gentleman's game. Remchester makes their guns, the others do the same with out much bally hoo except the "when all else fails, let's invent a new cartridge" crappola. Not so in the smokepole biz, where bombastic bullpuckey is the the norm-- not the exception.  On any given Sunday, there are at least four muzzleloaders that lay claim to "the World's Most Powerful." |
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Post by Loggy on Jul 2, 2004 6:23:02 GMT -5
This thread brought out some interesting perspectives we all have on this. Some I have never even thought about which is good. Well, I just ordered my PA 2004-2005 Hunting License on-line plus ML License. Read the current PA ML Regulations and I'm still good for another year!  Loggy |
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Post by 1thumb on Jul 2, 2004 7:25:39 GMT -5
I Agree, the loads have to be accurate, and I assume they are, or why record the data. If the shots are all over the paper the load isn't a good load and a waist of time. Some of us have had great results with this system at the high end of things. AND we were very careful and took our time testing and recording information. We've found allot of things that don't work and allot of things that do. This load information will come with a reminder that you CANT just drop in this load and expect it to work in your ML-II. It most likely wont. You need to start allot lower and slowly (much time involved here) work up, while looking at everything that happens. Once things get squirrelly, STOP. I've had 6 Savage ML's in the last few years and NONE of them shoot the same at the high end (remember I'm talking about over 2600fps), Some don't like hot fast loads at all. A couple shoot great at the upper end. That's the trick. Don't expect a load from this chart (when and if it's done) to work in your gun the same way. I've recorded about the same speeds with 47 gr's of powder that it takes the next guy to reach with 50 grains of the same powder bullet and sabot. At the upper end (or as far as I'll go) even the slightest difference in gun/weather/sabot will make the difference in a good load or a useless one. There has been some discussion "off line" on how we should handle and share this information. Those of us doing work at the upper end look at safety first, nothing is more important. This is information from long hours at the range, recording every step. It wont be a guide to fast loads. I'm becoming hesitant to put the chart up because of this. Any opinions about this are welcome. Randy Dunn  PS: Yes we should include ventliner type as a factor also. |
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Post by 1thumb on Jul 2, 2004 7:26:07 GMT -5
I Agree, the loads have to be accurate, and I assume they are, or why record the data. If the shots are all over the paper the load isn't a good load and a waist of time. Some of us have had great results with this system at the high end of things. AND we were very careful and took our time testing and recording information. We've found allot of things that don't work and allot of things that do. This load information will come with a reminder that you CANT just drop in this load and expect it to work in your ML-II. It most likely wont. You need to start allot lower and slowly (much time involved here) work up, while looking at everything that happens. Once things get squirrelly, STOP. I've had 6 Savage ML's in the last few years and NONE of them shoot the same at the high end (remember I'm talking about over 2600fps), Some don't like hot fast loads at all. A couple shoot great at the upper end. That's the trick. Don't expect a load from this chart (when and if it's done) to work in your gun the same way. I've recorded about the same speeds with 47 gr's of powder that it takes the next guy to reach with 50 grains of the same powder bullet and sabot. At the upper end (or as far as I'll go) even the slightest difference in gun/weather/sabot will make the difference in a good load or a useless one. There has been some discussion "off line" on how we should handle and share this information. Those of us doing work at the upper end look at safety first, nothing is more important. This is information from long hours at the range, recording every step. It wont be a guide to fast loads. I'm becoming hesitant to put the chart up because of this. Any opinions about this are welcome. Randy Dunn PS: Yes we should include ventliner type as a factor also. |
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Post by 1thumb on Jul 2, 2004 7:33:40 GMT -5
Go for it, keeps one from going to the range waisting time trying to work up a good loads.
One must use their head and back off the loads and then go up to the Max.
It is a great help to have a starting load that has been shot and proven to be safe and accurate.
Why waist time, when we all can state a load that we have tried and shot and have a large amount of data to go on.
1thumb
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 3, 2004 12:03:00 GMT -5
Well the high-end loads may be published on the net. But if "they" want them let them find the loads for themselves. And THEN let them say they are approved loads BY SAVAGE. If the "cat is already out of the bag" then we can say "what about T/C claiming 7 MM Mag. Ballistics in some of their rifles". And "anything standing 150 yards away is toast" Passing on the buck can sometimes get one out of a bind. |
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Post by rukidding on Jul 11, 2004 1:14:58 GMT -5
Well on the archived data topic, the only thing missing from the archive tables is a target or targets showing a group that the load is capable of producing. As for the "hot" loads....what "hot" loads.... R |
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Post by thumper on Jul 11, 2004 17:29:03 GMT -5
hi randy i have been testing the parker productions 400 grain round nose traditional hunter #2 alloy.with a new one hole vent liner.and lil,gun powder ,and supplied sabot,which looks like an mmp.70 degrees temp.55gr.2315 fps 65gr 2481 fps 70gr.2504 this is a .458 bullet recoverd bullet at 2481fps weighted 354.7 gr awesome!!! thumper...
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Post by ourway7 on Jul 11, 2004 18:09:19 GMT -5
I called both Knight and Thompson, and they both said maxim loads for 777 was 120 grains loose powder I shoot precision 300 grain bullets, 209 federal primers. I don't have a way of determing the velocity, but I really don't think they fly at 2700 fps. Anyone know is this possible. I don't see any change in Maryland or Delaware laws yet, Maryland just defines, powder must be loaded from the barrel. Delaware still says the savage is illegal with smokeless powder. I have called legislature in Delaware and they tell me that I must contact DNR. I call them and they say they only enforce the laws. I'm sure some Game Warden will take a close look at anyone using a savage knowing it is capable of shooting smokeless powder. Just another hassle when trying to enjoy Hunting  Lou |
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Post by grnhornet on Jul 12, 2004 0:23:22 GMT -5
I have seen the deer hunting regulations only get more liberal! higher deer bag limits and more weapons types permited. What state recently has tightened the weapon use regulations? All I hear, is how to reduce the deer population. How many DNR employees are on this board now? I, for one plan to use the Savage loads for now, but will that list change in the future? Randy D contact those DNR people and ask them what their interest in the loads are and end the speculation? That is the only way to find out. Again, the inpact of 15000 savage ML's to the deer population in the US is minuscule. 300 Savage ML per state!!!!! I am really interested in the level of knowledge of the people on this board. I am here to learn about and enjoy my new ML2. My 2 cents. Dave
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Post by mamaflinter on Jul 12, 2004 7:19:58 GMT -5
grnhornet Even if Randy did email the DNR about what their intentions were with the loading data, if they are up to no good with them, do you think they would be stupid enough to tell him? Could it be that the guy happens to own one himself? Unknown.
We do know that some DNR folks have been on the forum as well as some of the folks at Savage Arms. But the folks at Savage have been instructed to look around and not say a word. This came straight from Savage Arms. Doug & I have contacted them inviting them over (to the old forum) when the board was new in the hopes that they would take an active part in helping to develop loading data and give Savage shooters answers to the many questions they had. I don't know why Savage is responding in this way.
They took the bull by the horns and did something no other manufacturer would dream of doing in producing the 10MLII. They're finally beginning to advertise the rifle more and more. But they have an outdated loading manual, they change the vent liner without thorough testing without keeping the old vent liner on hand to see if it will pan out the way they thought it would.
A little devil's advocate here. But what if Randy Wakeman hadn't come up with the vent liner he is now offering? Savage shooters would be forced to use the 3 hole liners and slower powders.
Hey wait a minute, maybe that was in their minds all along. Who is to say that they don't want you all shooting all these high end loads and changed the part so that these types of loads wouldn't be possible with any degree of accuracy? I mean you all have been doing alot of extensive testing (as has Toby and 1SHOT 1KILL) on loading data. It could be that the data you have produced is further than Savage intends for the rifle to go. In order to tame it down, one way would be through the vent liner.
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Lou