Who tested these???????

[grouse]

This 3 hole vent liner is a real bust on the Savage.
I know Toby designed this. But who tested it before
agreeing to use it on the Savage. All over this forum, not to many people are happy with it. Savage really
dropped the ball on this.

[edge]

It does appear that they decided to drop the single hole prematurely. Most production facilities will run both products untill they are sure they don't need both!

Remember NEW COKE!
COKE Was probably the most valuable trademark in the world and they changed the "recipe"!!
Ever since that blunder Pepsi is neck n neck

edge.

[grouse]

Thanks Guy's. Guess we need to work on getting one hole vent liners.

[DannoBoone]

Hey Grouse, we finally agree on something!!! Just ordered
10 single hole vent liners from MidSouth today. A friend of
mine who is in tool&die has access to the equipment to make
single hole liners if absolutely necessary, but he isn't too
crazy about doing it even for me. There ARE people out there
who can make them for you.

I'm not totally discounting the three-hole liners, either.
RBinAR is doing a lot of testing with them and found them
to do quite satisfactory with powders such as N120. This
10ML is a new bird entirely, and NO ONE has all the answers
to its capabilities. No person or persons have attempted
all the possibilities with it. Keep an open mind, for someone
out there will eventually discover most of the secrets
necessary for near-perfect loads, whether it be with the
single-hole liner or the 3-hole liner.

[RandyWakeman]

Mark said:

I had Savage send me three 3 hole vents the 1st week they were available to us.

After trying the 3 powders I had been shooting with reasonable confidence ( N110, 4759, 5744 and a duplex with H322) NOTHING worked.

I called Savage techs 4 times in 4 weeks and complained that the 3 hole may have a place, but I wanted more 1 hole vents, they gave me the song & dance about how much BETTER the 3 hole is so they would be discontinuing the 1 hole.

IMO the 1 hole definitely needs to be continued, I posted about a month back for anyone out there that had any pull with Savage to please help and got zero response.

Last I was told, they were doing more testing. Other than that, I sure don't know much.

When I first started shooting the 3 hole vent-liners, the loads that had been my most accurate loads lost it. There were some intial reports of increased blowblack / fouling, but I was not able to replicate that with moderate velocity loads of 5744, N120, Reloder 7, etc.

The "long life" claim of the three hole ventliners showed not to be the case. They became two hole liners in as few as 25 shots . . . and then there was nothing that I could really call groups.

My suspicion is that the three hole vent-liner was introduced by Savage primarily because of documented customer service issues (misfires) with 4227. Yet, there have been plenty of 4227 enthusiants that have had never had a misfire with 4227-- provided they have a clean breech plug, use Federal 209A primers, use projectiles of 250 gr. or heavier, and use properly fitting sabots. Those that have had 4227 problems seem to follow a trend of having one or more of the above situations.

This seems a pity, as SR4759, N110, N120, AA 5744, and Reloder 7 have given all very good or even superb accuracy for several 10ML-II enthusiasts, without the bit more care required for use of 4227 or Alliant 2400. Removal of 4227 as one of the Savage recommended powders would have remedied the situation, with no changes or subsequent confusion for new Savage customers.

In any case, it is hardly an irreversible condition. Once Savage is convinced that there is a problem, the one-hole will likely be made the standard once again. I've been told there were "no problems" reported from the field-- but this thread alone shows that not is strictly the case.

I believe Savage will get things sorted out fairly quickly.

[simonkenton]

I could not get 4227 to ignite. Then I discovered that I had a clogged breech plug, the hole was so small you could barely see through it.
What was remarkable was that N110 and 5744 would both ignite with that same clogged plug.
My breech plug is clean now, and I am gonna keep it clean. But, as a deer hunter, which powders do you think I will take to the woods, and which one is going to get left on the bench?

[mamaflinter]

simon Several shooters have had ignition problems with the 4227.

[RandyWakeman]

simonkenton said:

I could not get 4227 to ignite.

Around here, if you go to a "pro shop," and say. V N110?," the answer is "Sir, can't really help you. All our stuff is 120 V AC, 60 Hz. Where are you going, Bosnia or something?"

"No, Vihtavouri."

"Never heard of that spot, is that in Kansas?"

"No, "Veet - a voor - ey.' "

"Vito Vorey? Well, I'm not up to date on all those "Sopranos" episodes. Good show, though."

So, going by the trusty mini-manual supplied with his 10ML-II, he settles for 4227, by far the easiest powder to find. The delightful mini-manual does not say anything about potential ignition problems with 4227, though, nor does it offer SR4759 or other powders that are both ignition problem free, and on most gun shop's shelves.

So, the daring new owner starts getting used to his 10ML-II, has a few misfires, gets disgusted, and calls Savage to let them know that "their gun won't go bang." A whole series of events for nothing.

[RBinAR]

LOL Some do some don't. It's often funny to me how different people see the same thing in opposite ways. I think the 3 hole liner is great. Hey it'll shoot slower powders much better than the single ever could and the chance of a misfire is almost none even with the lightest bullet.

If you do have to change (meaning you're forced by availability) then you are probably for sure going to have to adjust the load for your rifle. That's a problem to some for who wants to have to do that when it was shooting so good just a day ago.

For sure 4227 brought this about. I asked for it's deletion from the suggested list years ago. But that won't happen.

Actually I see a busy aftermarket business opportunity. The single hole liner is only a 10-32 countersunk screw with a hole in it. It's not hard to make and sell for say $4 apiece. Hey cake and eat it too.

[rdtimmjr]

Very, very observant MrWakeman. Before Doug's board that is exactly what happened to early purchasers of the Savage MLI module gun. Mostly however the problem was not the 4227 but the sabot choice. I know for a fact, I spit many a 250g XTP across the frozen ice covered ground before I gave up and used Pyrodex to get my new Savage to fire the first round. At first, I thought I had bought nothing more than a Remington 700 ML that I was so thankful to just get rid of.
However, I bet these fellows here can get the bugs out of the 3 hole liner in short order. It is like the best advice I took many years ago, "take every obstacle and turn it into an opportunity"

[rdtimmjr]

One more thing RandyWakeman and this is off topic but I just have to ask, please don't take it as personal attack, it is not meant to be. Did you have too many Molson's last nite?, as you obviously weren't asleep. Don't worry I won't send the big chief Graybeard my huge knife if Iget itpresentable! You may need to adjust your spending habits because I think you might be receiving your pink slip from his board. ;D

[RandyWakeman]

rdtimmjr said:

Did you have too many Molson's last nite?, as you obviously weren't asleep.

It would be difficult to say that, as an alcohol intake of zero is generally not considered "too many." Resigning from an unpaid position requires no lifestyle changes that I can think of.

[RandyWakeman]

RBinAR said:

If you do have to change (meaning you're forced by availability) then you are probably for sure going to have to adjust the load for your rifle. That's a problem to some for who wants to have to do that when it was shooting so good just a day ago.

For those that are getting good accuracy and life out of the three holers, all I can say is I'm glad they are.

For a new Savage owner, it seems a needless source of confusion. Most of the load data to date was naturally generated with one-hole liners, and the current owners manual shipping with rifles as of today does nothing to illuminate the consumer as to the "better" performing powders with the three hole liner-- or what now may be considered more propellant choices.

Just for me, personally, it would mean starting all over. With the liners I've tried that have lasted no more than 30 shots, there just isn't much motivation to do so. The three hole liners I have and have used vary widely from liner to liner, and the different "Mickey Mouse faces" on the end show some easily visible and very loose tolerances.

There just isn't much web area in the center to begin with, and while there might be some basis to think that three holes might erode at a consistent rate-- it escapes me.

All this, when Henry Ball already has had a patented, improved breechplug design for a few years-- that has surpassed 800 shots with no loss of accuracy, and no part replacement of any kind. Go figure.

[rdtimmjr]

RandyWakeman, I thought you would at least be knocking down bout 100gs from that lofty position

[brianr]

Mark,

Have you experienced this fouling with lighter(65-70 grain) loads of N120. I have a can on order and would like to keep the velocity around 2450-2500 fps.

Brian

[brianr]

Thanks for the info Mark, can't wait to try the new powder. I don't know why I do it I guess I can't help myself, I have to see what will work better than 46 grains of lil' gun. It's kinda like passing up a good buck for a better one. ;D

Brian

[edge]

Mark said:

SNIP
Quite a bit of black on the bolt with 78 gr and primer bulged but not enough you couldn't extract by hand ( have had a lot more bulge than this with other loads)

Have you cleaned the breechplug? A restricted breechplug CAN reult in "bulged" primers.

edge.

[edge]

Mark said:

SNIP

What I have noticed with every load on either vent is when you get any primer bulge the pressure back that caused the bulge is going to increase fouling behind the breech plug, it is just worse with the 3 hole.

Has to: it has broke what seal there is between the breech plug and sides of primer allowing gases back.

Hmmm... I'm not sure that I buy that.When I get primer bulge, the primer in the bulge are is clean, actually cleaner than when there is no bulge!

If it leaks, why would it bulge? I will assume that the primer is not ruptured, correct?

Do you use teflon tape or do you use grease? If you use tape, then there is an extra step when you replace the breechplug! There is a chance that tape can buildup in the threads, and get pushed to the end when you install it again. IF this happens, then you have effectively RE-HEADSPACED the breechplug, and the primer fit MAY be comprimised. I am not saying that this has happened to you, since I don't even know if you use tape or not, but it is something to pay attention to.

If you look at the sketch below, there is a large "+" near the left side. I am about 99% sure that the STEP on the outside of the breechplug (in that area) is where the breechplug "headspaces". It is obvious that tape COULD get pushed into this area and prevent this step from bottoming in the barrel.

edge.

[RBinAR]

;D "But I still think the load of 5-10 gr N110 under 60-65 gr N120 is faster than the single N120 with 3 hole, remains to be clocked."

I know one thing Mark you have not tested your 10-ML in theory only. You had to go shoot the thing to understand this. Yes at this time even with the three hole liner the 10-ML does not make enough pressure to be fully efficient. Now if I can just get Dave to give me a report on how much N120 it take him to get a 250 grain bullet to 2500fps with his new style breech plug I will know if something can be done about it.

Whatsa dave?

It sounds to me that the breech plug on your 10-ML does not seat the primer very well. I have not seen any of the primer flattening even with lots on N120 and some duplex loads with the 3 hole liner. One other thing plumber's white teflon tape works better and is a lot less messy than the grease.

[dave d.]

:)rb,i don't know if you were reffering to me but i don't have vvn120 but do have h-4198 if you'd like me to try some 250's i will, send me a message what specificly you'd like me to try and it will be done.

[grouse]

Hey Grouse, we finally agree on something!!!

Dannoboone,
I bet the next time won't be real soon. Just kidding.

[Savagefan]

:)Hey Grouse...

First of all, let me say that I DID NOT DESIGN THE THREE-HOLE LINER!

Don't know where you got that one from.

I DID TEST THE LINERS FOR SAVAGE BACK IN JANUARY...and the test liners I received back then worked just fine...with the same degree of accuracy as the one-hole liners (shooting loads of 2,300 to 2,400 f.p.s.). And these liners were all taken to 200+ shots.

Recently, all of my breech plugs have been fitted with three-hole liners that have been carbo nitride treated...and they're holding up well with great accuracy. One liner has been taken to around 280 shots...and still shooting well.

In fact, while visiting one large dealer in Michigan, 11 shop employees all put 2 to 3 shots through that rifle and all of the 25 or so shots at a hundred yard target printed inside of 1 1/2 inches.

What's wrong with that kind of performance?

Toby

[brianr]

Toby,

Forgive my ignorance but what is and how do you carbo nitride treat the vent liners?

Brian

[edge]

Savagefan said:

:)SNIP
I DID TEST THE LINERS FOR SAVAGE BACK IN JANUARY...and the test liners I received back then worked just fine...with the same degree of accuracy as the one-hole liners (shooting loads of 2,300 to 2,400 f.p.s.). And these liners were all taken to 200+ shots.

Recently, all of my breech plugs have been fitted with three-hole liners that have been carbo nitride treated...and they're holding up well with great accuracy. One liner has been taken to around 280 shots...and still shooting well.
SNIP

Toby,

Happy to se you weigh in on this. As I think you know, I have not used the 3 hole, so I have no axe to grind here.

1) You say that you tested in January, have you seen any change since the onset of higher temps?

2) Are ALL of the Savage liners Carbo Nitrided?

3) If the answer to #2 is NO, have you tried these, and how much of a difference does it make?

4) do you have plans to MODIFY the Savage Loads to accomodate the new Liner?

I do plan on buying some of the 3 hole liners to test, but I still have 19 of the single hole liners, so it may be awhile :-)

Being "out of the loop" on the 3 hole, I think that some serious testing MUST be done ASAP! Whether this problem is real or perceived, YOU and Savage need to get a handle on this, IMO! This seems like the original problems with the Model I !! Most of those problems were from people( Me Included) shooting 2400 with SUB 45 Bullets!

This is just my $0.01 worth ( Holiday discount)

edge.

[RBinAR]

Savagefan said:

:)Hey Grouse...

Recently, all of my breech plugs have been fitted with three-hole liners that have been carbo nitride treated...and they're holding up well with great accuracy. One liner has been taken to around 280 shots...and still shooting well.

Toby

Hi Toby: It doesn't mattter what you say the three hole liner may be the best thing to come down the pipes since the beginning ( I think it might be) and certain people (the same people) will do nothing but complain. Perhaps they complain because they just don't feel like doing anything else or because they are frustrated, but complain they will.

The three hole liner needs a bit of education break in time but it certainly is as easy to shoot accurately as the single. It is also more powerful and the liner in my rifle has no treatment nitride or otherwise and it is the same one you gave me (with 233 shots now) months ago to start reshearch. If you shoot slower powders with low pressure loads they last a long time.

Now I believe one thing needs addressed: How do we show 10-ML users how to get the most from the three hole liner (I have an Idea about it)? Once they know all this will be a pimple on a elephant's butt. However till then work yourself to death they won't be satisfied unless they get all the credit and do little or none the work.

What people want when something goes wrong is someone to blame. When the problem is within it's unlikely they'll accept that and so you or I or anyone else will do.

[edge]

RB,

I have no axe to grind here, but if someone buys the Savage, and the specified loads are inaccurate, then they do have a reason to gripe! I don't know that this is the case, but there are too many people saying the same thing to be ignored.
You also have to admit that shipping a rifle with a single hole vent liner and then giving them spares that are 3 hole is absolutely stupid from a marketing standpoint!!!

You have found that the 3 hole liner to be a great boost to the slower powders, so it only seems logical that the faster powders may not shoot as well.

The most important thing for me, is that you should be able to buy a rifle and put in a "Manual Load" and get reasonable accuracy. Not just this rifle, but any rifle whether it is a muzzleloader or a centerfire.

It seems that this may not be the case here, and it should be fixed.

edge.

[grouse]

Savagefan said:

:)Hey Grouse...

First of all, let me say that I DID NOT DESIGN THE THREE-HOLE LINER!

Don't know where you got that one from.

I DID TEST THE LINERS FOR SAVAGE BACK IN JANUARY...and the test liners I received back then worked just fine...with the same degree of accuracy as the one-hole liners (shooting loads of 2,300 to 2,400 f.p.s.). And these liners were all taken to 200+ shots.

Recently, all of my breech plugs have been fitted with three-hole liners that have been carbo nitride treated...and they're holding up well with great accuracy. One liner has been taken to around 280 shots...and still shooting well.

In fact, while visiting one large dealer in Michigan, 11 shop employees all put 2 to 3 shots through that rifle and all of the 25 or so shots at a hundred yard target printed inside of 1 1/2 inches.

What's wrong with that kind of performance?

Toby

Toby,
A couple people have said you invented it. I did ask Randy, and he said there were a few people taking credit for it. So if you didn't invent it, please accept my apology. Now the question is, the liner you are testing doesn't sound like the one Savage is sending me with my gun. How many different three hole liners are there. My 3 hole liner was cracked after 27 shots. I have got no really good accuracy with it. I am going to test a new 3 hole liner again. I shot at least 100 shot's thru my single hole Vent liner. No accuracy issues either. I am shooting AA 5744 powder. I guess really all i need to know is if you are shooting the same three hole vent liner that Savage sends with there gun's?

[grouse]

What's wrong with that kind of performance?

Toby,
Nothing is wrong with that Performance for most people. I just want better. I want the best vent liner i can get for my Savage. I have shot Sub 1" groups with the single hole vent liner. That has changed with the three hole liner. I hope you understand what i mean.

[RBinAR]

edge said:

RB,

I have no axe to grind here, but if someone buys the Savage, and the specified loads are inaccurate, then they do have a reason to gripe!
edge.

I agree with 100%. And the post I made stated the education of shooters is an issue. It's possibly a BIG issue.

But rather than anguish over Savage's lack of fielding this problem correctly the main concern of 10-ML enthusiasts is to provide the education.

Now where I differ between all reporting (so far) is my feelings about Savage themselves. If they were to inquire I have an instructional video already available to go with each new rifle. It could very well include the three hole liner. And users like Grouse could be aware that the 3 hole liner is different but it is likely to shoot just as accurately as the single with the correct load. But Savage will never do it, period!

The problem is they are satisfied with the state of 10-ML production and sales. Information about the 10-ML is ample and could be released quickly. But will they ask what can be done and execute that action? NOOOOO!

I don't give Toby any heat on this for it's obvious he has little or no say. If he did I'm sure that Savage would not be sitting on their hands.

So I won't praise Savage but I won't pan Toby either. They need some help in attitude and action! I know where they can get it buttt...... I'm not holding my breathe.

[Monty]

Randy,

Could Henry put one of those breech plugs in my gun he is working on?