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Post by grouse on Jul 3, 2004 22:45:39 GMT -5
Well Randy Wakeman has put alot of time and effort into providing us with just about anything we need to know about the Savage. Of course the SAFE CLEAN SIMPLE WAY. members.aol.com/randymagic/ballltd.htmThree pages of updated information. By reading his sight, three day's after i got my HB Savage i shot a 1/2 group. This information was very valuable to me. I think you will find it every bit as important as i do. Thanks a bunch Randy.  |
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Post by mike3132 on Jul 4, 2004 2:23:42 GMT -5
where do you think ol' randy got that info? most of it came from here so don't give credit were credit isn't do. mike
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 4, 2004 3:23:42 GMT -5
where do you think ol' randy got that info? If you really want to know, you might want to ask. You assumed the wrong spot.  When it comes to current sabots, much of what I've learned has come from Del Ramsey: www.chuckhawks.com/mmp_sabots.htm . As far as lead, that has been work I've done myself along with comparing notes with Doc White, Cecil Epp, and Ron Dahlitz. Powder testing over the years for Alliant Powder, Hodgdon, Olin, and Accurate Powders has provided a bit of experience as well-- as well as testing most every muzzleloader on the market that is not a Savage 10ML-II, and the majority of muzzleloading projectiles made today. When it comes to the Savage specifically, certainly Toby Bridges, Bill Ball, and Henry Ball deserve all the credit there is to give. If it wasn't for them, and Savage's decision to produce it-- there just wouldn't be much to talk about. But, there is: www.chuckhawks.com/instant_slamification.htm . The rest has a little something to do with the last 40 years of reloading, hunting and shooting, along with a dash of "reverse osmosis."  Thanks for the mention, Grouse, but it seems that free is far too pricey for some people. In any case, all that info was faxed to Henry Ball for his personal review before putting it up. Anyone who thinks otherwise can certainly ask him. If some of my writings should include a credit line to complainer "Mike3132"-- have at her, I'm not aware of anything at all. Are you? |
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Post by mike3132 on Jul 4, 2004 10:57:29 GMT -5
i should have worded it different. the savage 10 ML experts have always been on this board and always will be. why would a new savage owner want to go to your site when they can ask the 10 ML experts here and get an answer right from the horse's mouth or they can go to randy dunn's sav10ml site which is full of info that was developed here? randy(or is it grouse) no whining here, i just tell like it is. mike
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Post by Loggy on Jul 4, 2004 11:04:03 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents on this. I learned a lot from Toby Bridges HP ML site also.
Look fwd to receiving Toby's new book shortly! I'm sure it will be packed with great 10 ML information.
Loggy
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 4, 2004 11:25:41 GMT -5
i should have worded it different. Well, Mike ( or is it "Barney"?) what pages folks care to view on the Internet is their choice. If a mouse click is far too much bother for you, than so it is. Sheesh. |
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Post by simonkenton on Jul 4, 2004 11:43:40 GMT -5
I just went to Randy's site due to this thread. His first tip is that the ramrod can be bad for accuracy.
I have been shooting muzzleloaders for decades, but I had never heard this tip, nor had it ever occurred to me.
I have been having accuracy problems with my Savage, perhaps my problem is the ramrod. Sometimes I shoot with the ramrod in place, sometimes not.
I will try shooting without the ramrod next session and I will give a report.
Thanks, Randy
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 4, 2004 12:25:32 GMT -5
It can make a huge difference. Up in Manitoba bear hunting, Cecil Epp gave me a rough time about my "%#%^%" that 5744 was a great powder for the 10ML-II, saying that no way would it ever shoot in his gun-- which we had packed along. He shot it, and sprayed bullets 3 - 4 inches. Well, after being colorfully cussed at for some time, I asked him to get the %^$#@^ away, and give me the darn gun. Three 3.4 cc scoop loads of 5744 out of the bottle-- and Mr. Epp watched as they all went through the same hole at 100 yards: about a .67" group. He had bedded his Savage, but didn't pay much attention to the ramrod area-- and had shoved an Encore rod in. There was so much pressure, the metal Encore rod was angled out at the muzzle like a "V". I've never seen a factory rod in that condition, but in this case-- that is just all it was. So, Cecil isn't cussing any more, at least not about his Savage. I'd imagine he has found comfort in the fact that it was his .40 / 50 260 Dead Centers that shot so well.  |
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Post by grouse on Jul 4, 2004 12:50:49 GMT -5
where do you think ol' randy got that info? most of it came from here so don't give credit were credit isn't do. mike Mike, I do enjoy replies, but your's has no rhyme or meaning. When i bought my Savage, i had no clue how to even get on this sight. I have heard talk about it though. My thread was to help people who need help. I am sure they could find the answers here. But instead of looking thru all the post's, Randy offers three pages all together to help the Savage shooter. Just about everything they need to know. The only Savage board i was on before i bought my Savage was HP Muzzleloading. Well, to be really honest, after reading that for a month or so, the Savage was the last thing i wanted. Mike, i understand you like to tell it the way it is. You just need to know what it really is before you comment. Looks like this thread might already help someone with there Ramrod on the Savage. |
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Post by savageman on Jul 4, 2004 12:58:12 GMT -5
For any that have missed it........the ramrod pressure issue has been discussed several times on here in the past. Its not a newly discovered piece of info.
Savageman
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Post by simonkenton on Jul 4, 2004 14:05:48 GMT -5
I missed the ramrod pressure discussion on this forum, as you know, the forum saved four pages and then, vaporized, so if you stayed off the forum for a few weeks, you could completely miss a subject.
I did not see it in the Archives, nor did I see it on Toby's forum, which I love to visit also. It has also not come up on other good forums that I visit, including Huntamerica.
Randy, I have been posting problems on Huntamerica with SST [over there my name is allen griggs]. I got a lot of helpful responses, including some from you, but nobody mentioned the ramrod. See, when shooting SST, I have a special loading jag that I put on my cleaning rod, and I leave the ramrod in the gun. Normally, I just leave the ramrod out of the gun.
Anyway this may not be the problem but I am glad to know about it now.
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Post by edge on Jul 4, 2004 14:34:22 GMT -5
Well, Mike ( or is it "Barney"?) what pages folks care to view on the Internet is their choice. If a mouse click is far too much bother for you, than so it is. Sheesh. Randy, if I recall, 2 years ago YOU were anti-Savage. You came to Dougs site, and got the real info on this rifle. Ever since, you have been a proponent of this rifle, for which I believe we are all happy about, The fact of the matter IS that you got much of your early info from THIS SITE, and most likely would not be a Savage proponent without this site!!! edge. |
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 4, 2004 15:51:57 GMT -5
You know RandyWakeman or is it "Ijustdon'tgetit", you really don't understand why folks don't care for the internet boards they frequent if you are a member! ::)Big deal you are connected to the rifle inventor by helping market an upgrade for profit to all involved. That just diminishes your crediblity as an unbiased poster.
I find it interesting you are not connected to the 3-hole liner and wonder if you were left out of the loop purposely?
Man, controversy and confrontation just follow you around like your posterior. Look in the mirror, here it comes.
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Post by edge on Jul 4, 2004 16:35:08 GMT -5
SNIP Sometimes I shoot with the ramrod in place, sometimes not. I will try shooting without the ramrod next session and I will give a report. Thanks, Randy Some of the folks here have shot their ramrod, but nobody hase experienced any kind of accuracy! This is also a very expensive projectile, and even with that added sectional density, the B.C. is not good. I would suggest that you stick with a more conventional bullet :-) edge. |
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 4, 2004 16:53:06 GMT -5
I shot one ramrod with my Savage over the river, at least I think that's where it went, Toby claims he saw or heard it. I shot one through a target at 25 yds with one of my TCs, I could have hit better with my bow. All of this without touching a drop of intoxicating liquid, just the excitement and rush and HUMP of shooting muzzleloaders.
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Post by edge on Jul 4, 2004 17:13:51 GMT -5
SNIP I shot one through a target at 25 yds with one of my TCs, I could have hit better with my bow. SNIP. Don't feel bad, a 1200 grain projectile needs a lot more elevation than a 250 grain bullet :-) The best part is if you shot at a big buck and didn't get a lethal wound with the ramrod, he certianly would have laughed himself to death. Once they are in the back of your truck, they are ALL Heart Shots :-) edge. |
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Post by Loggy on Jul 4, 2004 17:37:15 GMT -5
simonkenton: I have shot my 10 ML-II with the ramrod out and in and couldnt see any difference in groupings. Same goes for my 2 flintlocks and 2 other BP In-Lines I own.
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 4, 2004 17:58:22 GMT -5
Daggonit, I meant HUMA not HUMP! |
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 4, 2004 18:03:14 GMT -5
One more thing, I wish I could could go Manitoba bear hunting, but I guess I will just have to settle for the pink elephants out back.
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Post by edge on Jul 4, 2004 18:50:50 GMT -5
rdtimmjr,
The season is closed now, permits for the upcoming season won't be available until February 30 as always!!
Please check your compendium for any changes.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 4, 2004 20:24:39 GMT -5
Randy, if I recall, 2 years ago YOU were anti-Savage. You came to Dougs site, and got the real info on this rifle. Ever since, you have been a proponent of this rifle, for which I believe we are all happy about, The fact of the matter IS that you got much of your early info from THIS SITE, and most likely would not be a Savage proponent without this site!!! edge. Edge, You recall quite incorrectly. I'd not appreciate the Savage had they not improved it-- this site had nothing to do with it, but Toby Bridges did. Toby and I exchanged a lot of muzzleloading info, most of which was non-Savage related. My initial reaction to the Savage was not a "wow" at all, and though last years model was obviously a well-made gun-- as supplied, it had a horrid trigger and a safety that was bad enough to keep me from hunting with it. The text and video review both reflected that. I'm not a fan of new guns with a "gotta do list." Current production, which I started testing last November, naturally had the outstanding Accu-trigger, a BIG improvement in the safety-- and even a usable ramrod. So, if you would like an individual's name, it was clearly Toby Bridges. But what really impressed me the most about the Savage was the 2004 version 10ML-II Savage itself. Any gun has room for improvement, some subjective, some less so. I think the Savage composite stocks are chintzy (their center-fires as well), a recoil pad makes sense, I never did like removing an action screw just to take the bolt out, and an SAE head breech plug is just common sense rather than being forced to use a proprietary tool. The laminated stock, while as good as any I've had on any muzzleloader, could be lightened a bit. But, certainly, the more Savages I shoot-- the more I like them, like today. Fair 'nuff? |
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Post by edge on Jul 4, 2004 21:09:37 GMT -5
Edge, You recall quite incorrectly. SNIP WELL, one of us does :-) I harbour no ill will, I hope that we are all here to advance tha cause of this rifle. edge. |
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 4, 2004 21:19:20 GMT -5
I say AMEN to that Edge. |
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 4, 2004 21:33:50 GMT -5
Edge, I am counting on u to keep me up to date. ;D
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Post by Loggy on Jul 4, 2004 22:14:40 GMT -5
WELL, one of us does :-) I harbour no ill will, I hope that we are all here to advance tha cause of this rifle. edge. Edge, you hit the ole 10(ML-II) ring there! |
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 5, 2004 3:30:26 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch Randy. Thanks for starting this thread, Tom-- I think. I'll try to make it up to you, some way. Maybe I'll cast some round balls for you for starters, or send you my "Sea Monkey" training kit?  |
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Post by SavageShooters on Jul 9, 2004 21:38:57 GMT -5
This whole thread is so humorous that I just had to reply. The fact that so many cried foul just because a new 10ML-II owner found Randy's pages helpful astounds me, considering thats what this board is here for (and mine, and Toby's and Doug's websites as well). So, I guess if we all look at your reasoning, we're all guilty of "taking from the boards".
One thing you forget mention is that Randy and everyone else mentioned above has taken the time and put forth the effort to assemble informative websites to help people get started in this area. While the information may be cumulative from many sources, it's useless unless someone takes the time to put it all together and make it easily accessible to those looking for it. Besides, until someone here can prove to me that every post they have made is based 100% on their own experiences and no one elses commments, recommendations, or advice......you're all doing the exact same thing, just in a different format.
Now are we going to stop bickering amonst one another over nothing and be civil, or am I going to have to stop the car? ;D
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Post by SW on Jul 9, 2004 23:18:15 GMT -5
Jim Baker,
I appreciate your thoughts. I'm not particularily an original thinker(except on politics and foreign affairs), I can go to town based on others' thoughts and ideas(RB's, Edge's, Toby's - by the way where is he - moving?). In testing, proving, and modifying some of their work I have learned quite a bit. I try to share this info, though little is original, just confirmed by 1 more person who uses benchrest quality rests, flags and a good range along with I hope good bench technique. We need to be able to share things in a non-critical environment. If we degenerate to where we can't, we will all loose. If someone gets on your nerves, just be big enough to show some discretion and judgement.
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