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Post by RBinAR on Jul 6, 2004 16:53:42 GMT -5
;D There have been many responses to the report of the sabots with the washer in the center for shooting the .40 SST/Shockwave bullet. I think many of you and a number of other folks would like to shoot this bullet if a simple speedy method was available.
The advantage over a 250 grain bullet are not great but still exist. They kick less so the average shooter could shoot the up to 200fps faster than a 250 grain bullet with the same recoil. So one can either have a trajectory advantage or one could have a lower recoiling load depending on the speed.
I've decided to move ahead with this because I think I can get it where it is the least amount of stress to the shooter. The sabot can be premade where all the shooter has to do is load and shoot.
To provide some consistency I've decided to do the first few batches myself. This way I know if they are made the way I've planned them to work. I have plenty of them in my shop so what I'll do is get a source of the enough aluminium washers where a number of you can try them at cost That is a sabot (about $.15 ) and the washer (.$10 to .$20 I think) and the postage.
If they work for you then we can work on providing a larger supply or the tool where you could cut your own.
At any rate there is some load work to do but I feel that a speed of 2700fps or just a bit less is a good level for a standard load.
The only thing I don't have is a good source of #6 narrow aluminium washers. Can any of you help with that. I trust I'll have to go for a few thousand to get the price anywhere near good enough to use but that's not a problem.
So how bout it?
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Post by SW on Jul 6, 2004 18:29:35 GMT -5
Rick,
Count me in.
Steve White
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Post by dave d. on Jul 6, 2004 18:43:17 GMT -5
:)rb,count me in too!
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Post by edge on Jul 6, 2004 20:36:42 GMT -5
RB,
I a ssume that these are NOT the washers that I supplied!
Mine were #10 washers and were approx. $3.00/100 !
The big thing is to find the manufacturer that makes the small diameter, since the regular size is 0.499/0.502 diameter. If I recall, the ID is 0.203
I don't know where to get yours, and you may have a local supplier, but if you need mine, I can get you the information.
edge.
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Post by Rifleman on Jul 6, 2004 20:42:21 GMT -5
rb I am very interested and am also very appreciative of all the good information in your posts. I was to receive my new savage m10 II ss/camo syn today but my dealer tells me UPS flubbed and it won't be in until thurs. I meant to get back in regards to my posts of 3000fps and make a correction, I did not mean to imply that the savage was prone to failure due to it firing smokeless. I am a former USMC shooting instructor and have seen weapons failures on several different types of weapons. But usually these could be attributed to an operator error of some sort.I should have been more specific, as I do understand the great amount of work that goes into weapon and load development. I was simply trying to find out what was the limit as to velocity with reasonable accuracy with a projectile suitable for hunting deer sized game. I am very pumped about getting my new savage and taking part in the fun. I truly believe that with the right load/optics & shooter the savage can be a 300 yd Plus deer gun. This is something we can only currently accomplish here in Indiana with specialty handguns. I also found out today that we had a new regulation change this year in Indiana that will have an effect on my load development. prev. we were required to use a projectile of at least 44 cal. Now that is changed and we can use a projectile of .35 cal or larger. So the 40 call 200 gr sst sounds like a reasonable starting point/ unless you can recommend something like a 35 or 375 cal 200 grs or under. A 180 gr or 200 gr .35 cal sptzer/boatail at 2800 fps would be a dream, if the accuracy was there. Your work on the 40 cal 200 gr sst has really caught my interest, and my dealer says he has me a can of vv n120 set back for me to take delivery of when my rifle arrives. Thanks again for the good info, sorry if there was any misunderstanding, and yes I would be glad to purchase some of the sabots for the 40 cal 200 gr sst if and when they are available. Also do you know the bc and sd of the 40 cal 200 gr sst? I thought I would plug this into my ballistics program and see what I could come up with. Thanks again, Rifleman
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Post by DannoBoone on Jul 6, 2004 21:49:39 GMT -5
Please count me in, also, RB. A couple dozen would let me
know if I would want the tool.
Have been searching the net for washers. Still looking. Is
there such a thing as a washer without a hole? (Thinking
about DC's & QT's.)
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Post by SW on Jul 6, 2004 22:08:52 GMT -5
:)This is for Rifleman and anyone else interested. The 10-ML2 is currently a 300+ yd gun. Using 250SSTs and V V-110 46g and sabot only in cool temps I practiced extensively at 100,200, &300yds. My 300 yd gps(3-shot) were 3-4"(4.5X14 VAR-X 3). I believe my duplex loads I use now ,110/120, where I consistently gp the 1st 2 shots<1" with 200Shockwaves and with 250SSTs would be even tighter at 300 yds. Published BC of 250 SST - .210, of 200Shockwave/SST - .250. Don't neglect to test the 250g bullets also. They are much easier to work-up and perform very well. Haven't tried the 3-hole ventliner yet - may change the whole ballgame. I do nothing original, just work on what RB,Toby, and Edge have initiated. So far my results have been the same as theirs - ie RB has liked the 3-hole liner and I expect to find success with it also. You can get sub MOA 2400-2500'/sec ,very reliable and consistent, 250g loads. I haven't had that yet with the 200Shockwaves but I plan to do so.
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Post by RBinAR on Jul 6, 2004 22:56:25 GMT -5
"I did not mean to imply that the savage was prone to failure due to it firing smokeless."
rifleman: As usual the error is mine not yours. I should have given you credit for being curious, not blow my stack because I felt sarcasm. New Savage shooters need all the encouragement they can get and when an old fart like me discourages one it's not a pretty thing. Please accept my apologies.
As to the best bullet you may be right about a .358 bullet being the best for the 10-ML. EDGE's idea and insert for shooting them was very successful in the trials I just finished shooting a week or two back.
The type of bullet possible is a bit limited. The 10-ML has a 1 in 24 twist barrel so any high BC bullet like a boattail or long spitzer will not fly in stability. However 180 grain .358 and 200 grain .40 caliber bullets will work quite well at speeds that are already past 2800 and 2700fps respectively.
The best jacketed bullet possible to shoot probably has a BC from .26 to .3 and would be .375 caliber. 35 caliber bullets are lighter but need more spin, 40 caliber bullets are more (possibly) aerodynamic but too heavy.
Only time and experimenting with the possibilities will tell us what to expect.
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Larry
Eight Pointer
Posts: 188
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Post by Larry on Jul 6, 2004 22:58:30 GMT -5
RB, Please put me on your list for the .40sst sabot. Thanks, Larry
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Post by edge on Jul 7, 2004 2:50:34 GMT -5
I am 99% sure that these are the washers supplied. I will confirm this later today. There are only two places that I would have bought them, MSC Industrial Supply or McMaster Carr. From McMaster Carr: www.mcmaster.com93286A011 Aluminum Flat Washer #10 Screw, Grade 2024-T4, .203" ID, 7/16" OD,.031" Thk $ 3.22 per Pack This item is only sold in Packs of 100 Hope this helps, edge. |
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Post by ourway7 on Jul 7, 2004 6:55:40 GMT -5
RB, this is just a thought, but why try gas checks they are exactly the diameter of the bullet, they can be gotten in 35,44,& 45 caliber. They would in no way hurt the barrel as they are copper. I don't know if this suggestion would work for you  Lou Sill No Caps |
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Post by edge on Jul 7, 2004 8:15:11 GMT -5
ourway7,
I have used many loads over the years using gas checks in the Savage, and specially modified gas checks. For instance when I shot PR Dead Center 45 caliber bullets with Lil'Gun, I always put a gas check inside the sabot under the boat tailed bullet to prevent the bullet from "drilling" backwards through the sabot.
What RB is doing is machining the inside of the sabot to accept the much larger washer. The perpose of the washer is to spread the load from the bullet to the sabot.
Hornady gas checks were about .02 each BUT they are heavy also. If I recall they weigh about 8 grains vs. 3 grains for the washer. The copper is also more ductile, which is not good in this situation. ( 45 cal gas checks are approx. 0.460 diameter)
edge.
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Post by edge on Jul 7, 2004 11:25:15 GMT -5
I have checked, and these are the correct washers! From McMaster Carr: www.mcmaster.com93286A011 Aluminum Flat Washer #10 Screw, Grade 2024-T4, .203" ID, 7/16" OD,.031" Thk $ 3.22 per Pack This item is only sold in Packs of 100 edge. |
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Post by Jim S on Jul 7, 2004 13:14:40 GMT -5
I would have interest in the washer/sabot and/or tool combination. I would like to shoot lighter, smaller diameter bullets in the .375 or so range. Also if I modify my vent liner edge style wouldn't that effectively make my barrel an "inch" longer in effect and be better with the slower burning powders?
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Post by RBinAR on Jul 7, 2004 13:49:52 GMT -5
1 ourway7 "35,44,& 45 caliber. They would in no way hurt the barrel as they are copper."
2 EDGE "There are only two places that I would have bought them, MSC Industrial Supply or
McMaster Carr."
3 Jim SS "I would like to shoot lighter, smaller diameter bullets in the .375 or so range. Also if I modify my vent liner edge style wouldn't that effectively make my barrel an "inch" longer in effect and be better with the slower burning powders?"
1 The gas check will work for sure but are a bit heavier than I'd like. If we can get aluminium cheap enough it is much better. There is zero chance of barrel damage so that's not a problem.
2 Thanks very much I think I have a handle on it now.
3 Jim we will start with the easiest first the .40 caliber 200 grain bullet should be fairly easy next will be the .358 180 grain spire point then the .375.
The new breech plug was in fact concieved with exactly what you're saying in mind. More barrel and primer closer to the load, that was hopefully a gain in two areas. My problem is I'm so busy with these bullets and inserts I have yet to shoot the plug for comparison reasons. perhaps dave could bring us up to speed with what he knows.
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Post by herman on Jul 7, 2004 14:36:25 GMT -5
RB put me on the list too I just brought another ml 10 so I could double the fun. Thanks
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Post by dave d. on Jul 7, 2004 17:08:56 GMT -5
:)rb&jim,i haven't got alot of shooting in with the new plug it's been hectic around here(having a addition done).but the little i have done i would say that it does create pressures faster and will probably increase vel.i don't have a origanal to compare but if some one wants to shoot 70grs of 4198 and a bare saboted 250sst and see what velocity you get i got 2515fps with this design.i will post more info as i get it.
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Lou