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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 22:43:43 GMT -5
There is a potential problem with IMR-4759 that it is now distributed by Hodgdon (IMR's new owners). The history of this Canadian made powder is that a batch is made every five years or so, then it is sold off-- and it can remain unavailable for some time. Considering IMR's erratic production schedule combined with Hodgdon's specifically disclaiming their use in the Savage muzzleloaders," as they also do with their IMR-4227 / H-4227 ( they suggest their own far more expensive and profitable Triple Seven, are you really surprised?) supporting Hodgdon powder with purchase dollars for Savage 10ML-II use with their "QUITE CLEAR ANTI-SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING STANCE" makes no sense. I don't blame Hodgdon, they make far more money from Triple Seven and Pyrodex. However, loudly "disclaiming use of all their powders" in the Savage 10ML-II just goes to show that they have not bothered to test one prior to their "disclaiming." They disclaim the use of "Hodgdon CLAYS" powder for use in 28 ga. and .410 shotshells as well. The difference is that there, they actually DO have a reason! Why should anyone who believes in smokeless muzzleloading support a company that is so loudly opposed to it, without any factual basis?
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Post by SW on Jul 12, 2004 22:49:45 GMT -5
Randy I'm curious what they say about using Ltl Gun in the 22 Hornet. What about future supply of 4759?
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 22:58:07 GMT -5
I didn't ask about Lil' gun; as far as 4759-- they just said they don't know, have not seen any since they bought IMR, know of no current production run planned, and that I was the first person to even ask them about it.
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 12, 2004 22:59:35 GMT -5
RandyWakeman, I don't get your point with this post. Are you saying don't buy Hodgdon or IMR powders for use in the Savage ML? If so, are YOU associated or selling something as an alternative? What corral are you trying to influence and lead the sheep into?
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 23:11:48 GMT -5
It is as clear as I know how to make it:
Why should anyone who believes in smokeless muzzleloading support a company that is so loudly opposed to it, without any factual basis?
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 12, 2004 23:33:16 GMT -5
RandyWakeman, what are your alternatives? Why are these powders recommended in the Savage owner's manual? What difference does it make anyway? Hodgdon is not going to quit selling smokeless powder soon no matter the recommended use and smokeless Savage owners don't have to buy Hodgdon Pyrodex or 777 or even more ridiculous the pellets forms of either for their gun. I would guess that most Savage owners might need to buy either or both for the other muzzleloaders they own?, so they would be supporting Hodgdon anyway?
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 12, 2004 23:42:22 GMT -5
I have 3-4 dozen pistols, shotguns, and centerfire rifles that I need powder for. What company do you recommend I buy powder from for these? It is great that I just steal a little out of an IMR powder can I already have and shoot my Savage.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 23:43:52 GMT -5
RandyWakeman, what are your alternatives? Why are these powders recommended in the Savage owner's manual? What difference does it make anyway? 1) They are hardly "my" alternatives-- other makes of powder that have performed well are all over this board, and elsewhere. 2) There are no "Hodgdon" smokeless powders listed in the Savage owner's manual-- only an IMR powder that was not owned by Hodgdon at the time the manual was written. 3) The "difference" is that it makes no sense to support a company that is against a product you both use and believe in, in this case the Savage 10ML-II and smokeless muzzleloading. Not much seems to matter to a lot of companies, but somehow profit dollars always do.
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 12, 2004 23:58:23 GMT -5
RandyWakeman, I would agree that profit dollars always influence both a corporation's and an individual's stated opinions in attempt to sway the public.
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Post by DannoBoone on Jul 13, 2004 19:08:41 GMT -5
Why should anyone who believes in smokeless muzzleloading support a company that is so loudly opposed to it, without any factual basis? If everyone who read this on this board suddenly ceased purchasing "H" powders, Hodgden wouldn't notice the difference. It would be like a drop of water in a 5-gallon bucket. If everyone who owns a 10ML ceases to buy "H" powders, it MIGHT be like a drop of water in a 3# coffee can. REALLY gonna hurt 'em! Randy, if you really believe in your above logic, here's a suggestion. Many on this board are very loudly opposed to you -- how about going somewhere else?? ;D
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Post by Monty on Jul 13, 2004 20:57:02 GMT -5
It's a little pathetic that some of you keep crying over Randy Wakeman, Also don't you work for profit?, Do you stand for anything? other than slamming a persons opinions over and over! You get off this board, if you get my drift! This board is for everyone to help in the growth of our chosen sport. The Cow is dead leave you crap in the cubbard until there are real issues and then be constructive in your advise. Sound like kids in the back yard!!!!!!
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Post by grouse on Jul 13, 2004 22:18:57 GMT -5
It's a little pathetic that some of you keep crying over Randy Wakeman, Also don't you work for profit?, Do you stand for anything? other than slamming a persons opinions over and over! You get off this board, if you get my drift! This board is for everyone to help in the growth of our chosen sport. The Cow is dead leave you crap in the cubbard until there are real issues and then be constructive in your advise. Sound like kids in the back yard!!!!!! What is going on here. Post's are being deleted. One minute threads are locked.
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Post by bubba on Jul 13, 2004 22:22:17 GMT -5
so, let me see if I understand this correctly...........
its okay for RW to bad mouth the H company, PR bullet company, savage for multiple reasons, and most anyone else here who differs in opinon from him, because..............................
thats where I have troubles making sense of this Monty, perhaps you could enlighten me?
-bubba
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 13, 2004 22:30:31 GMT -5
It has gotta be the "ghost of Greybeard" at work here on the Savage board. He must have hound-dogged RandyWakeman and Grouse's scent to this thread!
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 13, 2004 22:40:11 GMT -5
This thread got out of hand and I deleted a couple of posts off this thread because in my opinion were "flames". In my opinion it takes pennies to make dollars and if everyone stopped using Hodgdon powder in the Savage it might not make much difference BUT that is that much money the company won't get. But I guess the main thing would be knowing you didn't spend your hard earned money to a company who despises the gun you are shooting. Hodgdon has bad-mouthed the "smokeless muzzleloader" ever since it came out because? ? Who knows. What if all the members in the NRA felt the way(My puny dues won't amount to a hill of beans") some of you do about not using Hodgdon powder? Where would we be today? "another opinion", It is my opinion you were way out of line and I won't tolerate any flames on this board. If you want to post and have something to say which is practical then all is well, if not then my advice would be to just read. Randy Wakeman as I understand has a new ventliner which last longer than the standard Savage liner. He is also got the HB rifles for sale. Randy writes and does tests on guns ect for a living as well as Jim Zumbo, Jim Carmichael not to mention a host of other people. BUT to flame someone just because you don't agree with them is not the way to accomplish anything. God knows I don't agree with everything anyone has to say or their opinion on some subjects. The best way to get a straight answer to something you don't understand or agree with is simply ask, "what do you mean by that"? I don't want anyone here to be forced to leave and I don't want to lock this board down to members only. I do want everyone to get along even if it comes down to "agree to disagree". However, one more flame on this board and I have no choice but to restrict this board to registered members only. I can't have ANYONE attacking someone else. This wasn't what this board was made for. Nuf said
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Post by walt cowan on Jul 13, 2004 22:45:10 GMT -5
up untill i got my savage, i never bought smokless. i'm now using imr 4227. wonder how many guys have done the same? seems strange big H would kill off a new set of customers. : oh yeah, leave randy alone.
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 13, 2004 22:48:47 GMT -5
rdtimmjr, Buy the real stuff. Who said you HAD to use Pyrodex or Triple-7 in any muzzleloader? You might be surprised that black powder is more accurate in any muzzleloader than the sub powders are 9 out of 10 times. Muzzleloaders of all sorts were used for YEARS before any one of the sub powders were even thought of.
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Post by SW on Jul 13, 2004 22:52:59 GMT -5
Walt, V V-110,120,130, 5744, 4759, even Ltl Gun, 4200 have all been more satisfying powders to me. 5744 extremely accurate but slow, V V-110 fast accurate clean , 4759 just pretty good also, 4200(34g) very accurate/dirty. Ltl Gun - works well or doesn't - very fast. Just my thoughts. Steve White
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Post by rdtimmjr on Jul 13, 2004 23:03:59 GMT -5
Doug, I'm smiling because I'm using IMR-4227, a single hole vent liner, and a 250g XTP in a low pressure MMP sabot to knock them dead off their feet at 2342 fps. I am still clean, simple and safe and also politically correct because my IMR-4227 was pre-Hodgdon. I'm obviously doing everything wrong but I'm still learning from the wealth of info here. I readily admit I had to use Pyrodex to get the Savage to fire the first time after many futile attempts, your board was badly needed back then. I appreciate your board alot and probably enjoy it too much?
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 13, 2004 23:10:43 GMT -5
rdtimmjr, I never could get IMR-4227 to shoot accurately, but as you know all guns are different and am glad you are having good luck with it. Also thanks for your kind words about this forum. I am presently using LIL'gun but will be trying V V-110,120,130 in the near future. If Hodgdon don't want us using 'their" powder in our guns far be it for me to do so.
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Post by Monty on Jul 14, 2004 0:00:20 GMT -5
;)Hello Bubba, Others
Just for the record i will use what ever powder works best in my gun! I do not like the idea that Hogden has chosen a path of least resistance but times change and so does the evalution of this sport. I enjoy this board and have ordered a Henry Ball from Mr Wakeman. Talking to him on the phone I would say that he is in business. So am I! I would just like to keep it a little less offensive on every issue that he developes. or thinks, and anyone else for that matter. or this will become an undesirable board, without the information that we crave. Good and bad opinions help shape our future. I must have missed some posts of interest while I was at the slave yard! Enjoy and hunt smart!
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Post by Not Bubba on Jul 14, 2004 0:34:07 GMT -5
Amen
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Post by Redclub on Jul 14, 2004 7:54:27 GMT -5
Thanks Doug Good piece of advice. We don't need this but I need a way to get a gun into Canada to go Moose hunting. Redclub
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Post by walt cowan on Jul 14, 2004 10:17:31 GMT -5
sw, as soon as i can find v-110 closer than than 100 miles away, i'm getting some. been puting other powders off untill i used up this can of 4227. now if what you guys say about big-h is true, then time to take a road trip. lets see.... 20 dollars in gas or 20 in a hazt mat fee?...... darn! forgot to log on! sorry
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 14, 2004 17:28:46 GMT -5
Walt, V V-110,120,130, 5744, 4759, even Ltl Gun, 4200 have all been more satisfying powders to me. 5744 extremely accurate but slow, V V-110 fast accurate clean , 4759 just pretty good also, 4200(34g) very accurate/dirty. Ltl Gun - works well or doesn't - very fast. Just my thoughts. Steve White Hi Steve, I believe you might be referring to Alliant 2400 above? As for my "opinion," it was posted because I was not aware until recently how extremely vitriolic Hodgdon was in their "anti-smokeless" posture. Far worse than I suspected or thought. Yet, they have no facts to back up their stance. Far from remotely suggesting a massive anti-Hodgdon campaign, or thinking that foks will throw out current powder supplies, etc., it might make more sense for longtime Hodgdon customers to write to Chris Hodgdon-- actually, a very fine man, and express their own feelings on the matter. Also, a letter to Ron Coburn of Savage Arms would not hurt. They are both big boys; they can certainly reach some sort of gentleman's agreement if they are both truly gentleman. It really isn't all that radical.
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Post by Douglas Blair on Jul 14, 2004 21:45:22 GMT -5
Randy W, this sounds like a great idea. Could you post their mailing and or email addresses?
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 14, 2004 21:58:25 GMT -5
Randy W, this sounds like a great idea. Could you post their mailing and or email addresses? Chris Hodgdon, Hodgdon Powders (Fax# 913-362-1307) chodgdon@HODGDON.com 6231 Robinson Shawnee Mission, KS 66202 Ron Coburn , President, Savage Arms Fax #413-562-7130 118 Mountain Road Suffield, CT 06078
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Post by SW on Jul 14, 2004 22:17:03 GMT -5
Randy, Yes, I meant 2400 not 4200. It really has been accurate for me, but after trying V V110 and 120, I've not used mugh of anything else. Thanks for listing each man's name/address. I'll write.
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