45-70 vs 45-110 vs 50-140

[MarkKw]

I know I'm putting way too much thought into this but I'm trying to cover a lot of ground with a limited amount of funds.

I'd like a BP cart rifle that is capable of accuracy for shooting target with light loads yet can be cranked up for hunting the biggest of game without worry. I've narrowed my choices down the above three being the 45-70, 45-110 and 50-140. The latter two really hurt when it comes to buying brass as I have yet to find it for a reasonable price so on the brass side the 45-70 wins out. On the power side, the 50-140 seems to have the market cornered however the options available for bullets is limited, only found three molds for this one and even the smallest is a big-un. On the .45 side there are a whole lot of bullet choices from light target to 500 grain heavy hitters. Given the bullet choices, I'm more inclined to go with the .458" bore.

I also considered cheating a little and going with the 45-70 for the cheap brass but going to smokeless loads for the extreme power loads. Going with the 45-110, I think there will be plenty of power available from the BP loads to handle anything I need. As for target loads, nothing to say I can't load light with the BP and just use some filler wads. BTW, 99% of the hunting this rifle would see is on rain days in place of the flinters.

I'm looking for your thoughts on this one. Anything you think of. What you would do...ect. I know the proper way to go about this would be to have a target rifle and a hunting rifle but scraping up play time cash is a little rough right now to go for two rifles. I'd really love to have the monster 50-140....why....ain't bigger better? ;D Brass is not that much higher for this one than the 110 but I'd definitely need to invest in a custom mold for lighter target bullets too........ I really think too much don't I?

[shunka]

Well, I hate to complicate matters, but I believe it rather depends upon where you are, what kind of hunting you plan to do, what kind of target shooting, and if you have decided upon a particular type of rifle.

For instance, a Sharps Heavy barrel wil do the job nicely in any one or the cartridges, but unless you have a gun bearer or horse to carry it, hauling a 17 pound rifle up and down wooded hills or mountainsides will be the death of you.... :-) Rifle weight however, becomes nearly irrelevant when hunting from a stand, as long as one can get it there and back.

If you are serious about Long Range Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competition, I fear that a nice light Browning high wall with a thin easy to carry barrel will not hold it's own in target work.

Can you elaborate upon what specific activities you have in mind?

best regards
shunka

[MarkKw]

The rifle I like the most is the pedersoli repo of the 1874 Sharps Long Range Rifle, just checked pedersoli's site to ensure the name and the caliber is 45-120 not 45-110 as I thought earlier. 34" barrel and wieght just under 12# but light in the stock and the stock is not wide nor tall enough for my likes. I would probably say this would be the base design I would follow but doing some slight modification so it fits me and holds off hand the way I want. I'd like to not exceed the 12-13# range as my milage increases (read getting older). I don't know how a long medium weight barrel like this would perform on the range against pro's but I think it'll definitely out-do my skills?

The target shooting will be two phase, one to keep me in practice and two to have some fun competing against others if I can find a place to shoot regularly but not professionally and maybe some hunting too?

[shunka]

My personal prefernece is to keep the weight to 10 pounds and under, and I rather like the 45-70, "just because". In smokeless, the 45-70 in any *really strong* action (ie: Marlin 1895, Ruger #1 or #3, Bolt action Siamese Mauser) can come near to the .458 Win magnum , when dealing with the critters that bite back.

However, the 45-110 Sharps will definitely handle anything smaller than a dinosaur - it consistantly did the job prior to the smokeless repeaters.

Your choice, the Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 or 45-120 will most certainly do the job you have in mind. It will also hold it's own with a good paper-patched load in either Long Range Rifle bullseye or Metallic Sillohette. Some folks might advise you to get into a custom barrel, but give the one it comes with a try, and if it needs some help after breaking it in, you couls try lapping it out a bit, to make things smooth and consistant from end to end if need be. You wil find that many of the BPCR silohette shooters are using 45-90 or 45-120 with excellent results.

I shall endevour to dig up some of my old BPCR links and pass them along.

[MarkKw]

I'd appreciate the links. I guess I should have said that I am having this rifle custom built for the most part. Nothing against pedersoli, they seem like decent rifles but I want the little bit heavier (wider, thicker higher) stock, sights set where they correspond with my eyes, ect. The pedersoli held ok for me offhand but would have been much better with a pound or so more weight shifted to the stock, I think this is where adding a little more girth to the receiver is going be a key point too.

Perhaps I should make this a differnt post.... when light loading a BP Cart I always used wads, either nitro card or made from pressed cardboard to take up the space between the powder and bullet. It works but it's time consuming and basically a real pain in the butt. Is there an easier way? Can a shorter cart be used such as a 45-70 in a 45-120 without problems?

[shunka]

Well, the theory says that one can shoot a shorter cartridge in a longer chamber - and of course it will work. The issue is that the poor old bullet must travel the rest of the chamber length essentially unsupported, until it finally engages the rifling, not to mention gas blowing by the bullet. Once that occurrs, the bullet can be wobblying all over the place, and thus any hope of real accuracy is terribly compromised.

If one is considering ranges of , say 25 to 50 yards, you may only be seeing variations of perhaps a minute of coffee can... :-)

For good accuracy one really wants consistant smooth engagement of the bullet to the rifling each and every time. This is why the late great Harry Pope advocated muzzle-loaders. He pioneered great barrel making, but also persisted in the manufacture and use of false muzzles and loading cylinderical bullets from the muzzle,
even when using single shot cartridge rifles! He would chamber a cartridge case loaded to the brim with powder and an over powder card, then load the bullet from the muzzle, seating it on the cartridge. This made for extreme consistancy in bullet engagement of the rifling.

These days, most folks will use some "freebore" between the chamber and rifling in order to smoothly engage the rifleing, and try to minimize the crimp on said bullet.

Now, with all that under your belt, what many folks (myself included) like to do is to use full length cartridges for all loads, but follwing this recipe:

powder
over powder card
corn meal filler
bullet base card
bullet.

if one uses a paper patched bullet with the paper base, one can dispense with the bullet base card, unless you find the corn meal sticking to the base. When one is dealing with 600 or 800 yard accuracy, one does not want anything sticking the bullet to set it out of ballance.

This if course assumes that one is both weighing ones' bullets, and checking them for roundness and concentricity.

Since you are having this magnificent beasty built to your own specs, I would have a chat with the builder regarding case length (perhaps you might prefer 45-90 or 45-100?) freebore, rifleing depth, square vs round bottom rifleing, rate of spin vis-a-vis bullet weight and length, and barrel crown, bullet lube and also powder type. I realize this is a lot of stuff to try to deal with, but each item is a seperate variable in the equation for the ever elusive golden load.

I would advise that you take your time, so you don't have any regrets over a "snap" decision. Also, are there any BPCR shooters in you area with whom you can pow-wow and thus benefit from their experiences?

Also you might check into the CAS and SASS folks, as they have some long range BPCR matches going, and many are more than willing to let folks try their rifles.

some links:

paper patched bullets
www.iastate.edu/~codi//PPB/PPB.html

Black Powder Catridge News (check *their* links!)
www.blackpowderspg.com/

www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

www.yauponcreek.org/RangeList.html

webpages.charter.net/dougd/malpaso/bpcart.htm
groups.msn.com/BPCR/links.msnw

Perhaps we could find WCY and persuade Mr Young to chime in with his sage advise and experiences with BPCR...

good luck and have fun!
shunka

[MarkKw]

Thanks for the links, got to check some of them out earlier today. Did a lot of thinking today and have considered the facts that rifling twist is going to put a kink in my program right off the bat. If I go with the 45-120 for the obvious long range & hunting advantages, I'm going to want a heavy bullet in the 400-500 grain range. This means a long bullet requiring a fast twist in the 1:17" or 18" range if memory serves. Dropping to a lighter bullet in the .458" diameter means going with a slower twist around 1:22" or 24" lest the short bullet have too high of an RPM making it less stable.

I already had the rifling type discussion on another matter with several barrel builders and shooters. All agreed that the specific style of rifling does not make much of a difference but the depth of the grooves should be directly proportional to the type bullets being used. Consensus was that with cast bullets, the deeper the better. I got a lot of different answers on the number of grooves though and this remains a sticking point.

Some time ago I did a lot of research on bullet seating depth. I found a lot of great info one was a test done on several rifle actions, same cal, same barrels, ect. I don't recall the exact number of thousandths of free run they came up with but .002" to .003" sticks in my head for some reason. I do recall this was for positive feeding and so forth in a repeating action. I also recall an article on match guns that said if operating under X pressure one could seat the bullet touching the rifling as long as the action closed without having to force it. I'll definitely try different seating depths to see which one works best.

No one I know locally shoots BP cart. I know there is a club that host BP cart shoots but everytime there is a shoot, I have been stuck working in the mines. A whole year has gone by now and every single shoot day ends up being a work day!

The more I think, the more I see the 45-70 as the most viable option for me right now. In time I may drop to a 38-55 for paper punching. If the opportunity presents itself requiring me to have a little more power for a hunting situation, I can always have the 45-70 rechambered to 45-120.

[MarkKw]

OK, for those who read this reply before I changed it, maybe I spoke too soon. Seems the insanely high priced rifles & parts I was looking at is not what it's going to cost me on the custom side. Talked with my builder today and while it's not going to be a small investment, it will be more reasonable than what I've seen thus far considering it's custom and not off the rack.

[RBinAR]

;D"capable of accuracy for shooting target with light loads yet can be cranked up for hunting the biggest of game without"

Of course the 45-70 will get the nod for so many are out there and components are so easy to get and midl loads a re "no sweat".

Still it lacks one of your requirements, it is not an ideal rifle for the biggest game (debate if it might work or not but that's another subject).

For the above requirement I'd go with the 50-140. It is certainly not as common as most others and it is a bit more difficult to locate components. But it easily meets both requirements of making a fine plinker with reduced loads shooting 400 grain bullets, while also being able to shoot a 515 or 550 grain bullet past the speed of a .458 Winchester mag. If you find a rhino in the pea patch you're ready.

[WesTx]

Just to confuse things a bit more:

You'll also have to consider the time frame of the rifles and rounds if you intend to do any shooting tied to specific periods. The .45-120 and .50-140 were late-comers to the game. By the time these two rounds, especially the .50-140, got into production the buffalo had been fairly well shot almost into extinction. If you are only interested in shooting for score or hunting, the probable best choice would be the .45-120. The use of long, heavy bullets available in .45 will work well in the long case. Good luck.

[MarkKw]

I ended up going with the 45-70 for a variety of reasons. If the urge hits though, I can always have it reamed out to 110 or 120 in a few minutes.

[Pocampo]

Mark,
I would go with the 45-70 for LOTS of reasons, but mostly because you can purchase factory loaded ammo for it as well as handload BP cartridges if you decide to. I personally would opt for a Shiloh or C. Sharps over a Pedersoli. If you decide to sell the rifle at some time the resale on the Shiloh or C. Sharps will be much greater, even though the initial cost may be more you will lose less in the long run and the gun will only appreciate in value as time goes by. If you go to many gun shows you will see what I am talking about. If you try to sell or trade a Pedersoli, Sile, Armi San Marco, etc. no one is willing to buy or take them on trade, not that they are not good guns they just don't have a good resale value.

I have (2) 1874 C.Sharps rifles. One is a 45-70 and the other is a 50-100. The workmanship and quality in the C. Sharps is outstanding. One piece of advice i would pass on is to NOT buy a gun with a crescent butt plate, especially anything over a 45-70 as they are brutal to shoot. I would opt for a shotgun style butt plate with a cheek piece to add weight to the rear of the gun. I have this style stock on both of mine and am well pleased.
Pocampo