|
the rut
Nov 24, 2008 15:34:54 GMT -5
Post by whyohe on Nov 24, 2008 15:34:54 GMT -5
i was watching a interesting program on deer and the rut. it brought up some interesting points and questions for me. they pointed out that the rut was actually triggered by light. when the day light gets shorter is when the rut starts and is the same time every year give or take a little. the said the biggest mis conception is moon phases effect the rut. but what they said is what it effects it their activity so it seems like the rut may have started sooner. my questions are probably misunderstanding or old hunters tails . it seemed to me that when we had a cold snap early the deer SEEMED to go int the rut early and i was led to believe this is true. also they never mentioned a second rut? is there such a thing? i thought there was. i have seen bucks follow does closely and grunting early in Jan during our primitive ML season. they pointed out the rut MUST happen at a certain time for the fawns to be born at optimal time for their survival. what is your opinion?
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 24, 2008 16:30:59 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Nov 24, 2008 16:30:59 GMT -5
My opinions are these: Shortly after shedding the velvet the bucks are ready to breed. The healthier the buck the quicker it becomes ready. The rest is decided by when the doe comes in season. If a doe fails to conceive during her first season then she will come in again in about 28 days. Young does become ready to breed depending on age and health. It can be on up into January. I have personally known of fawns being born six weeks later than the earliest in this area. To me this indicates that at least some rutting activity lasts for six weeks. When there are few bucks and many does the bucks have no need to roam about looking because more than they can handle come to them. In my area does have outnumbered the bucks so bad that I have never seen bucks fighting or even being aggressive. But to answer the question specifically IMO. The breeding begins when the older does come into heat early and the rut peaks a couple weeks later. It then falls off as more and more does are successfully bred. Here I have seen as many does looking for bucks as the other way around. This evidenced by does moving with their tails extended straight back and to one side. Usually they are walking as if they have a definite destination and purpose in mind. Normally they are alone and I am satisfied that if they hit the trail of a buck they would follow it. It is my opinion that a doe in heat is as anxious as any buck during the rut. With many does on the prowl all the buck has to do is grunt and here they come. A cow will break through a weak fence to get to a bellowing bull. I believe deer breeding is a two way street. One more thought...I don't believe does shows favorites amoung bucks. I can't see a hot doe turning down a fork horned buck and go looking for a wall hanger. It is nature for does to leave their home range when in heat and I believe this helps to prevent inbreeding. Just some of my thoughts and observations from here in Arkansas. Ozark
|
|
petev
Eight Pointer
Posts: 248
|
the rut
Nov 24, 2008 18:25:02 GMT -5
Post by petev on Nov 24, 2008 18:25:02 GMT -5
whyohe it is amazing that you began this thread today, because I was just getting ready to start a thread to ask the same questions. Here goes my understanding of all this: First, the only way anyone can have a reasonable opinion on deer going into rut, is to observe deer throughout the fall and early winter. If your observations agree for the most part with a few of the more respectable books on deer biology, and deer hunting, then you are probably on to something. Anyway, I can state as fact that in my area of upstate N.Y., the rut will begin from Nov. 7 to Nov. 12, depending on weather, or whatever it depends on, i.e. what do I care, since I just have to observe the deer to know when it has begun. If I see a doe with fawns just lounging about feeding, then the does are not in rut, or heat. If I see a buck walking about without a swollen neck, and taking his time with everything, maybe the word mellow could be used, he is not in rut. When a buck is chasing doe scent with head down, he is either in pre-rut very close to rut, or he is in rut. If I see does who had fawns with them all summer, without the fawns, and moving along in a straight line, not lingering they may be in rut. Obviously if does and a buck are visiting a scrape they are in rut. Okay, according to the big book on Whitetail Deer by Halls, they stay in rut for about a week. If a doe is un bred she comes into heat 30 days later. If a female fawn achieves a certain size, somehow figured at 80 lbs., she can be bred, more than likely on the second heat or rut, 30 days after the first. It makes sense, a prey species will drop their fawns all about the same time, so predators will not be able to seize too many of them. By the way, in N.Y. the fawns are dropped about the first of June, or a couple of days earlier. And before someone says it, the late drops would be about 30 days later, or theoretically even 30 days after that. After so much rambling, my question to the forum is with a second rut coming up here in N.Y. in early Dec., I am assuming that I would hunt it like the deer are in rut, near old scrapes etc. If anyone has input on hunting the second rut I would like to hear. It, coincidentally coincides with our late ML season here. Peter
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 24, 2008 22:05:27 GMT -5
Post by farmallm51 on Nov 24, 2008 22:05:27 GMT -5
Pick up a copy of "Hunting Whitetails by the Moon" by Charlie Alsheimer. "It shares insightful yet straight forward secrets into how the moon effects the whitetailed deer's breeding patterns. Alsheimer discovered these secrets while working with Vermont biologist Wayne Laroche."
It is really good information. It tells: when and where to expect peak deer activity. what triggers peak rut activity. why the rut's timing and deer activity vary each fall. yearly predictions for peak rutting activity.
I got my copy through Amazon.com.
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 25, 2008 5:44:40 GMT -5
Post by wilmsmeyer on Nov 25, 2008 5:44:40 GMT -5
Petev and Ozark:
I agree with what you've said. I have a general theory that the rut is geared for fawns to be born at the optimal time in the spring that allows them to have the best chance to survive the approaching winter. They need to build the body fat needed...at least in the colder climates here...to survive.
With that said, most does will be bred within the same week each year, regardless of the moon, the temperature and other factors mentioned. There will also be some early and some late breeding as mentioned. There are always exceptions.
As petev noted, here in NYS the actual breeding phase is the 2nd week of November. Those of us in the woods notice these signs year after year. Wandering fawns, lone does, bucks seen in areas not usually seen, groups of button bucks that act very dumb and then a distictive absence of buck sightings while on stand. The breeding class bucks are bedding with does in heat and not moving until she is done with him.
As for a secondary rut, it can be great. It usually seems less pronounced. Other factors such as bucks needing nourishment and rest as the temp dramatically drop plays into it here. Deer begin ganging up at food sources and all the wandering kinda stops. Find the food and you find the deer...all of them usually.
Great thread.
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 25, 2008 11:00:09 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Nov 25, 2008 11:00:09 GMT -5
I believe very few things 100% about deer. This is one I believe 100%:
Photperiodism triggers rut. If not, they'd NEVER breed in Arkansas during the many warm winters we've had. Cold weather simply triggers movement, thus you see them better in daylight. Would YOU move around in 70 degree weather with a fur coat on?
The rut is very different even 100 miles apart, maybe even 50, and maybe even 25. Our rut, meaning where the does stand, is after Thanksgiving.
I killed a small 8 pt Friday, 11/21, and he stunk like crazy from pre-rut, glandular hocks.
Food, temperature, all play parts in when we see deer. But if you ask 1,000,000 hunters, almost all have NEVER seen a deer breed. Never, ever, not in 40 years of hunting. I have not.
That tells me we know very little about actual breeding times, just the activity that leads up to it (pre-rut).
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 25, 2008 11:07:18 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Nov 25, 2008 11:07:18 GMT -5
One note that skews things, ESPECIALLY in our area. We have such a skewed doe:buck ratio, way too many does, that all does are NOT bred in first rut period. They will continue to come in for months and months and will get bred late. This results in small, late drops, deer that are tiny, and that's our current problem (info is based on State Biologists reports I have just received, not merely observation, but observation bears it out).
So, a RUT might occur again a month later, another month later, etc.
Heck, 2 years ago I saw a TWO WEEK old fawn standing in camp yard on Christmas day. That's sick. That's simply too many doe, and one of 'em got bred as late as June or July.
That kind of thing skews folks opinions of the rut because they see strange things at strange times, and attribute it to the weather, or other odd things, when it's not.
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 25, 2008 14:57:40 GMT -5
Post by whyohe on Nov 25, 2008 14:57:40 GMT -5
that is a very interesting observation about too many does and how it effects the breeding times. and other ruts.
|
|
petev
Eight Pointer
Posts: 248
|
the rut
Nov 25, 2008 18:13:30 GMT -5
Post by petev on Nov 25, 2008 18:13:30 GMT -5
Buckrub, that's an interesting and astute analysis of the effect on fawns of too many does. It begs the question, are not enough does taken, or too many bucks, and is it due to the regulations or the preferences of the hunters themselves? Just curious, sounds like something needs some adjusting anyway IMO. Peter
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 26, 2008 12:55:35 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Nov 26, 2008 12:55:35 GMT -5
Pete, a combination of things.
First, for many years dating to 1950, Arkansas had a NO DOE policy statewide. This was needed because in 1938 the entire state had only 500 whitetails! When deer quantities are far lower than habitat carrying requirements, no does should be shot. But over time, the inevitable happened. Does had twins annually, a buck and a doe (as an example), and the buck was shot as soon as he was seen, spike or 4 point or whatever. Over and over. Sooner or later, that results in WAY too many does.
I just printed out the Biologists report and he says for us to let every fawn walk, let every single 'female' deer walk (since 95% of them are NOT females!), let the 3 point statewide rule work, but to shoot every other dang thing we see!! He says our tiny body weights are the result of too many deer for our habitat, reducing body size and antler size, and causing the scenario I described above of late-born, small deer that are prone to predators and have small bodies and racks. The tiny spikes we see annually are probably a result of being the 'runt of the litter' due to being born late, very late, to probably too-young doe.
Quantity and Quality are strictly inversely proportional. That's why Saskatchewan has such huge deer.
Fast forward to today.....and there are STILL a ton of 'old hunters' left who frown on doe killing. They say "if you kill a doe, you're killing 3 deer". Of course, three deer, or THIRTY THREE needed killing, but they can only remember back when there weren't any, and a deer track was a sight to behold.....and just can't relate to "too many deer". They can't imagine such a thing, though it is 100% real in most places now.
So, to answer your questions, it is a function of too many does, not enough does taken (you just can NOT take enough, honestly), too many bucks (meaning male deer, and meaning in ratio to the doe), and hunters, especially old ones, just hate to shoot a doe. Even if they buy into the QDM theory of eliminating doe, they just hate it because 'it's boring'. That's what I hear in our club from the older members. The young ones ignore them, shoot double the does, and go on.
Oh, something needs adjusting all right!!!
|
|
petev
Eight Pointer
Posts: 248
|
the rut
Nov 26, 2008 14:47:46 GMT -5
Post by petev on Nov 26, 2008 14:47:46 GMT -5
Good answers buckrub. Thank you.
|
|
|
the rut
Nov 26, 2008 14:49:22 GMT -5
Post by tasaman on Nov 26, 2008 14:49:22 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what has been said but I thought I'd throw in somethings I've read and observed. There was a very interesting perspective I read that makes a lot of sense as to when the breeding occurs and possibly why. The article said that in a controlled habitat there was breeding year round and bucks even would develop antlers at random times. I do not remember the state where the experiment took place but it was not in the deep south and it was after about 10 years into the experiment this took place. I want to say it was in Missouri but I can't remember for sure. The belief was with no predators there was no reason to fawn in mass quantities to insure the survival rate. In areas with more predators the breeding time will be much more condensed. This would be throw out the window if you have a very high deer to predator ratio.
On having too many does....what that does is allow a lot more young bucks do a lot of breeding. I believe it's PA that did the study. They estimate that over half of the does are bred by 1.5 year old bucks. Since there is no competition for a hot piece, everybody gets a share. That also means less big buck movement during the day. One way to gauge your ration is to see how many late season bucks are see having broken tines. More broken tines means higher buck to doe ratios.
Oh, Buckrub, the colder the climate a deer inhabits the larger the deer must be in order to reduce surface area to mass ratio. It's something I learned in keeping lizards. What that means is large animals manage heat better. They are able to go much longer without quality food and still able to survive on their mussle and stored fat. In Sask in the late season and especially with a heavy snow fall there really isn't a whole lot of food for them up there.
This is only my opinions. I'm sort of obsessed with deer and I read and watch a lot. No trail cameras, just me in the woods about 150+ days a year watching. I never keep track but I would venture to say I see about a thousand deer a year. I try to figure out what they are up to and then base my next move on what I saw. One thing I think I have figured out for certain is for as much as we do know to be facts about deer we don't really know all that much. Deer do what deer want when they want and there are way too many factors affecting thier decisions. I just spend as much time in the woods and don't ever and I mean don't ever worry about what anybody says the deer are doing. I've seen more deer in on day on a day that one of my friends said was supposed to be a bad day for deer movement than that guy has probably seen in an entire season. Just get your butt out there and figure out where they are. Deer live there and they have to be somewhere. They are not in your living room or the mall or on the computer. Well, the ones that didn't make it through the season are on here but thats besides the point. lol
One more note. I love everything Charlie Alshiemer has wrote but I disagree with the moon phase theory. My opinion and no one lick of scientific proof but to me the photo period, in other words the ammount of light during the day, has a lot more to do with it and yes I also agree with the moon and the temperature moving a lot of activity to the night time hours.
Did I mention I'm a addict? lol
|
|
dka
Spike
Turn Adversity into Advantage
Posts: 8
|
the rut
Nov 30, 2008 22:48:41 GMT -5
Post by dka on Nov 30, 2008 22:48:41 GMT -5
We had Fawns being from May until Sept. this year here. We have too many does and not enough people willing to take does. Gun season started here Oct. 18 and heard a hunter said that he seen a fawn with spots?
|
|
|
Post by youp50 on Dec 3, 2008 6:56:05 GMT -5
A couple of Upper Michigan observations.
Does do not all come into heat at the same time. I have seen red doe pee in the snow during December muzzle and archery hunts. This snow we get, sometimes 300 inches per year, serves to leave a road map of deer activity to follow. It also serves to concentrate deer into deer yards, wintering habitat. Forget the buck track follow the red pee doe it is better than any scent you can buy.
Our deer herd is also skewed to too many does. The DNR ( Do Nothing Right crowd) saw fit to balance the budget on deer tags and for a time allowed 4 bucks per hunter in Michigan and still allow two per. Of course you need to BUY the tags. We don't really have too many does, just not enough bucks. This is based on observing the body fat on the does a number of years ago when they allowed doe shooting. Over browsed habitat cannot make a doe fat.
I have seen does being chased by bucks as late a Christmas. 'Normal rut' time being sometime in mid November. I have seen a spoted fawn nursing on a doe in the late November rifle season.
I believe most people never see or hear a buck fight because they are relatively uncommon. If you see a bachelor group of bucks hanging around in the summer you should bet they will not fight over a doe. They had all summer to figure out the pecking order. Put two like sized bucks from different groups on a hot doe and the fur is gonna fly.
We often take bucks with poke holes in the hams. About the same place someone with a knife will cut me, while I run away. Some bucks just plain do not want other bucks around.
|
|
|
the rut
Dec 3, 2008 21:35:56 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Dec 3, 2008 21:35:56 GMT -5
Most of the deer remaining in Arkansas in the late thirties and early fourties were near our homestead in the Ozark National Forest. Many of the deer there were trapped and used to stock areas throughout the state. They survived and multiplied. Naturally after stocking the deer in new areas the does were protected and the hunters understood that killing a doe meant eliinating not one but several over three or four years. I have my own theory as to why the deer in Arkansas were practically eliminated and I don't believe it was hunters killing to many. Back then they had what was called free range and hogs and cattle roamed freely in large herds consuming all the food that deer needed to survive and multiply. My own family had in excess of three hundred hogs living off the acorns and roots plus we had ten to thirty cows and a few horses and mules that used the mast to survive. The law changed making it illegal for lifestock to roam freely in the woods and the deer made a remarkable comeback. Now we have more deer than is needed for hunting and far more than we need crossing the busy highways. I am an old timer and I have no problem with shooting does. I see it a waste to shoot fawns whether male or female. Not much meat on a thirty pound deer. On our property I want some does taken but that is only a small amount needed. The deer that uses our property also uses surrounding property. Much of which allows no hunting of any type. Buckrub is correct in his assessment of the unhealthy ratio of Buck/doe ratio. I say unhealthy because our highways take more deer than the hunters in this area. Ozark.
|
|