What grain size of Swiss Black to Purchase??

[Triple Se7en]

Heard a couple of ruptured barrel stories on the FFF Swiss & the bore pressures it produces. That grain size is my first interest because I've always been a FFF user in the past ... ie ... Goex - 777 - Pyro P. What's your typical FFF sidelock grain volume with a roundball or heavy conical??

Also... if I purchase the FF for my 50-59 cal percussion rifles, will the FF grain size be small enough for my Traditions & T/C sidelocks without fear of hangfires? What grain volumes are you typically using with FF?

I've been meaning to try/test this stuff for a while now. Looks like I'll be stuck buying 5 cans online because I can't find it anywhere in my neck of the woods. Besides... I need new reasons to tell the wife I have to go to the gun range. This will be the perfect excuse to go several times in 2005. ;D

[Bayouman]

Joe, I have never tried the Swiss & cant find it locally either. I have read here and elsewheres that some go to the 1.5 fg due to the pressure concerns.

[MarkKw]

I use 2F primarily for everything but 3F seems to do better on light charges. My .50 don't like 3F except for 40gr under a PRB that shoots very good groups out to 50 yds but they are too light for anything other than target or small game. My .32 is picky, it likes 15-20gr of 3F but fouling is nasty after the second shot. I had limited time but tried 25gr of 2F and the fouling was considerably less and it produced a 2" group at 75, nothing better than 5" at this range with 3F.

One thing I started doing was loading slower which seems to make a considerable difference in outcomes. While reading up on BPCR loading, I found the powder is done though a drop tube into the case pouring slowly over several seconds. This is working for me on the ML's too using the barrel as the drop tube. I pour my powder slowly allowing it to settle on it's own. I then give the side a couple (2) taps with the palm of my hand and load whatever over the top. Last I pulled a ball, I had to use the puller screw to loosen the powder to remove it as it was packed that tightly. Much cleaner burn too as this has cured a lot of my fouling issues especially with the smoothbore and .32 rifle. BTW, all the above is using Goex.

[Birddog6]

If you have access to the stories, I would like to read about them. I hear rumors of this kind of thing all the time, but never anything concrete.....

[Birddog6]

Someplace I have a chart on charges & loads & grains size on the Swiss Powder. I am trying to find it & when I do I will copy & post it. I also think the Main Powder House used to have a recommdation on their web site, but I see the site is changed so I don;'t know if it is there.


The guys I know that are using it are loading it as such:

3F Swiss up to .45 cal. (20% reduced charge)
2F Swiss on .45-50 cal PRB (20% reduced charge)
1.5F on .50 Conical & PRB up to & including .62 cal. (20% reduced charge)
1F on rifles over .62 cal. (20% reduced ccharge)


Not only can you overpressure a breech if not careful, but I am told that you can easily gas cut a barrel with improper loads of Swiss in a rifle, and especially if you shoot a patch/ball combo that is not really tight. I always play the safe side & stay under maximum loads & etc. with ML's, regardless of the powder.

I just shoot Swiss in the small bores (32, 36, 38, 40 cals). I have too many calibers & loads to keep track and don't nead 2 powders & set of loads for every rifle....

I think if I was going to shoot it in the large bores, I would shoot all Swiss and not to be going back & forth all the time. However, I have never had a reason to shoot Swiss in the large bores, as the Goex has always done me well & easier to access. I use the Swiss in the small bores as it fouls less & makes the loading & shooting easier in them, thus more enjoyable for me.

[Desert Rat]

I'd like to know where the stories are coming from also...I am very skeptical of them since Swiss is BLACK POWDER, not some majic ju-ju secret potion. It is a high grade, sporting grade BLACK powder, nothing more. I really don't think they are slipping any nitro into it.

I believe what really sets it apart is the type of wood used for the charcoal...which I guess really makes a difference in the quality of a black powder.

I can believe that it's a little hotter due to it's higher quality, but I can't really buy into the ruptured barrel thing...it's not smokeless powder and it's not any kind of substitute powder, it's black powder for heaven's sake. If you can't blow a Lyman barrel up with over 170 grains of Goex, I can see no way that normal/reasonable charges of Swiss are going to do it. Your powder charges with Goex or whatever would have to already be within 10% of blowing/bulging your barrel to begin with.

I've been using ffg Swiss in my Brown Bess carbine for a year now, and will be shooting it in my Jaeger exclusively. I also use it in my Remington Navy where it is MUCH softer than T7. (and MUCH more accurate)

I think these rumors about Swiss are HIGHLY over rated. It is HIGHLY unlikely that the pressure difference between ffg and fffg Swiss is more than 10% at most, or that Swiss is more than 10% hotter than Goex.

Rat

[mactavish]

Hey Guys
I know many shooters that use Swiss for hunting and competition and are as dedicated to it as others are to Goex. If you want to try Swiss, the best advice is to use the same graduation/granulation as you are currently using and cut the load by the 20% recommended above. It may shoot differently in your guns than Goex and you will have to develop the proper powder/patch/ball combination all over again.
I have never talked to anyone that has damaged a firearm with Swiss or anyone that knows of anyone that has damaged a gun. I shoot Swiss in my .45 cal flint target pistol and I have never had any problems.
Some like it because it shoots cleaner for them than Goex or Wano or Elephant or Kik and the extra cost is what one has to pay for the cleaner burn. Some will never shoot it because of the cost no matter how clean or dirty the cheap stuff.
Use what you can get and what gives you confidence in the gun, the load and in yourself.

[blade4f]

I have switched to Swiss 3f in all my 50 cal & under rifles(and revolvers) I'm very impressed with the clean burning traits. Also, when shooting flintlocks on humid days the pan doesn't soup up as bad as others. I shoot thousands of balls per year & have seen no deterieration in accuracy-actually has improved. My regular target load from 50 Green Mtn ball bbl is 50 gr. I use up to 80 gr when we shoot 200yd buffalo targets. I have chronographed loads w/different powders. My tests showed 50 gr Goex 3f/PRB @ 1487, 50 gr swiss3f/PRB @1606, 50 gr swiss2f PRB @1476, all at the same session. Definatly more potent but not nueclear bomb. I figure after using less per shot, swiss costs 2-3 dollars more per all day range session. Consistancy from lot to lot is excellant as is accuracy.

[Douglas Blair]

What you guys have to remember is the Swiss powder is a SPORTING burn rate not a RIFLE burn rate like the rest of the powders we have been used to using. To give you an example of the difference between the two, I have a friend who has a .45 caliber Hawken (T/C) which a 45 grain charge of FFFg Swiss would put the hammer back on half cock while using a round ball, and a new T/C nipple! I wouldn't go past a .40 caliber rifle using Swiss FFFg and not past a .54 while using FFg Swiss. And this is while using round balls. For conicals in a .54 I'd go to the 1 1/2 Fg. and to Fg in anything bigger than the .58.

I'm not trying to scare anyone off here but this powder is hot to say the least. This is the first sporting burn rate black powder that the shooters in the US has saw in around 100 years, so we have had plenty of time getting used to using a rifle burn rate powder.

[Triple Se7en]

Interesting... thanks fellas!

[DaveK]

Like averyone, I have an opinion as well. I tried 3F Swiss in my 50cal. and settled on 2F Swiss instead. The recoil was more pleasant with the 2F. In the 40cal.( I don't have a 45cal.) I shoot 3F Swiss and like it allot! For me in my 50cal. I found that to get the same POI at 100yds. when using 80gr. of 2F Goex, I used 70gr. of 2F Swiss and 60gr. of 3F Swiss.

[Douglas Blair]

All who have shot the Swiss powder know it is clean burning. If you go past the LODR with this powder it gets real nasty in a hurry. This is one way to tell if you have pushed it too far, but be sure you are using the right size for the caliber of gun you are shooting.

[Triple Se7en]

Well Blade & Dave....
I just ordered 4 cans Swiss FFF. If my sidelock 58 won't shoot it, then my faster twist 50s will start eating/digesting a sugar-free gun powder... lol

[SteveMD]

I switched, about 4 years ago, to Swiss in all 10 of my MLs. I have 7- 50 cals, 2- 36 cals, & 1- 12 guage. I use 30-40 grains 3F in my 36s and various charges of 2F in my 50s & 12ga. For my handmade percussion, which I was using 80 grains of Goex 2F, I now use 70 grains Swiss 2F, POI difference is less than 1/2". I cut all my charges 10-15%, from Goex to Swiss. I like the consistency, cleaner burning properties of the Swiss, & would not switch back to Goex even if they doubled the price of Swiss. Just my .02cents.

[SteveMD]

I forgot to add that in my 2 flintlock 50s, I use Swiss 2F and even in rain or snow they are as reliable as my percussions, if I do my part, with instantaneous ignition. And with Swiss, I am like Doug, in that I will not use 3F in any thing bigger than a 45 cal.

[Douglas Blair]

Amen Steve. To use Swiss FFFg in anything bigger than a .45 is asking for a lot of pressure and trouble.

Like I have said before this powder is nothing like any of us has used as there wasn't any sporting burn rate here TO use. The burn rate between say Goex and Elephant are almost the same because they are both a rifle burn powder, but to compare those two to Swiss is like comparing an apple to an orange.

[DaveK]

I agree 100%. I tried 3F only briefly at the range and it is potent stuff. I am using 2F Swiss now and I should probably try 1 1/2F Swiss.

[Birddog6]

With all of this said.... this data should totally blow your mind....

www.schietsport.com/dutchmuzzleloaders/swiss-lading.htm

[DaveK]

Hmmmmm, I did try using 82gr. 3F Goex in my 12ga. SxS and recoil is SHARP. I did not feel comfortable for the guns sake to be using this powder. I wouldn't personally try that with 3F Swiss at all. I would even cringe with the idea of 2F, but would consider 1 1/2F Swiss in a bore of this size. Your mileage may vary.

[SteveMD]

Birddog6, where did the "cut by 20%" figure come from? The reason I ask is because everything historical I have read says that you can expect a 10% increase in pressure from musket grade powder to rifle grade powder, & 10% from rifle grade powder to sporting grade powder. I always cut 10% for my 50s & 12 ga, and 10-15% for my 36s, which by the way TC says, in their manuals that 40-60 grains of 3F is optimium-maximum charge. I can garantee you tho, I will never shoot 60 grains of Swiss 3F in my 36s, normally I shoot no more than 35 grains of 3F.

[Birddog6]

The 15-20 reduction in volume load suggestion for the Swiss I got from Bill Knight long ago. If Anyone knows about Black Powder, testing or it & etc., he does...

Also when I first bought the Swiss powder from the Maine Powder House they tole me the same thing upon making the purchase.

[SteveMD]

Thanks. I have read some of Bill Knight's writings before, and enjoyed them immensely, he seems to be an educated individual concerning gunpowders, chemical reactions, & the resulting pressures & velocities. I cut all my charges 10%, some up to 15%, but when I cut more than that they seem a little anemic to me, but I don't have access to all the measuring doodads & formulas & chemical knowledge that he does. Thanks again.

[Douglas Blair]

Bill Knight knows black powder from one end to the other-make no mistake about it.

I know a little too ;D
There are several things which determine the burning rate of a black powder. The purity of the ingredients, how well the ingredients are incorporated (ground mixed) the type of charcoal used (and the % of carbon in the charcoal), the SG of the powder, and of course the grain size of the powder itself.