oak trees for wildlife

[youp50]

I am quite sure that I will be plating some hybrid oak trees this year. Our native oak is the northern red oak, good lumber and firewood tree, not so good acorn production. By its nature producing acorns every other year, and then subject to frost out up here.

Anybody do anything like this on their property? I sure would like to hear about your experiences.

[ozark]

Years ago we planted some sawtooth oak that has produced pretty good here in North Central Arkansas. I am not sure about the benefit of acrons for deer. We have an abundance of acrons nearly every year. I personally believe that thickets containing bushes not to exceed five years old is better than oak trees.
We have areas we bushhog on a five year plan that has a couple of acres newly hogged, a couple one, two three and four years of age. The deer does much browsing in theses areas and they also provide resting areas. Just a thought. Ben

[broomebuck]

you can check out arbor-day .net they break it down pretty good growth rate wild life packs ect

[jims]

About 9 years ago I planted 2500 each of red oak, white oak and walnut and 1000 Eastern White Pines. Also a variety of specialty
trees. Unfortunately because of drought, rabbits, deer and fire I think I only have about 1000 left and they are not all that good.
Nothing producing any nuts yet.

[youp50]

Thanks Ben. Our deer herds are very different. There is not a deer within 15 miles of my place now. They migrate to winter yards some very far away, I believe that some deer have been tagged and collared and they travel in excess of 60 miles to winter grounds. I own some land that the deer could survive on fir the winter, northern white cedar swamp. The trouble is to start a yarding population they have to be enticed not to migrate. About 20 years ago a neighbor tried it, a great deal of time and financial commitment is needed. The deer have to be fed corn and the likes to get them to stay. The neighbor did that and then in the late winter/ early spring some coyotes found them and ate them up.

Late in the winter season the snow crusts and will support a dog/coyote/wolf and the deer will break through and flounder. It creates very easy pickings for a predator that normally chases down its prey.

I am taking off to do a little work out of town. When I return I will plant several different hybrid oak trees. The buggers are rather pricey, at about 10 bucks a piece. I wish I would have done this 20 years ago. I will use tree protectors and see what happens. They should keep the deer and rabbits from eating them and at 10 bucks a piece I am sure I will haul water if needed. I am not planting anywhere near 8500 trees though. I figure more like 10 or 15. Up here acorns are a very important fall feed.

I do have areas of brush and thickets that are utilized by the deer.

[rossman40]

The sawtooth oak is great because it will start producing acorns when they are about 5 or 6 years old. The drawback is the acorns are small and turkeys love them but deer will go for other varieties first. White oak is the favorite but unless you fertilize them they will only produce every other year plus you have to wait until the tree is about 20 years old before it starts producing acorns. You can go with some fruit trees and get pretty good results. Apple (including crabapple), pear and even persimmon trees. Bushes help like coralberry and even honeysuckle. If your up on the U P with a lot of snow grasses and and food plots can be under the snowpack and may not help till the spring.

[ozark]

Very interesting to learn that they do migrate in some areas. Here it is claimed that they are born, live and die withing a square mile. But I don't buy that. I have heard dogs chase them several miles out of their home range. I believe that if deer find less disturbance, more food and in general better conditions they will move to it. One thing I have observed here is that the highway department creates good food plots on either side of the highways and many deer auto accidents occur. They come out to feed along side the road that are planted in grasses, clover etc. Rossman alluded to a variety of foods and I think that is what deer like most. Persimmon are a favorite and we leave all of these but they are seasonal. Fortunately, a variety of acron trees grow in our area. Post oak, pinOak, White Oak, Red Oad, Water Oak, Black Oak, Overcup plus others. The problem is that just over the hill, or a mile away is the same habitat. We have found that a good pond containing water seems to hold deer in an area as well as a food supply.

[rossman40]

Supposedly if you have the necessities, food, water, minerials and safe bedding area the deer will not go more then 1/4 mile. But food supplies are seasonal and then comes the rut. I read somewhere that a buck will travel over 100 miles to find an area and does will go 40-60 to follow the food.

[youp50]

Deer up here migrate many miles. It is a winter habitat thing, those that don't migrate, don't last long enough to reproduce. Interestingly, the timber wolves migrate, too. Its a food thing. Some years the best hunting is on the migration trails during the later seasons. For deer that is, it is frowned on to hunt wolves here. Although the DNR has determined that the wolves have exceeded the social carrying capacity. A nice way to say that folks are realizing that a timber wolf is not a good neighbor and are whacking them.

[Clumbsum]

I planted 100 white oak seedlings last spring. Any one have an idea how many years till they bear nuts. Located in west central Iowa. I had to cage all trees otherwise deer would mow them off. We have a huge deer population in this area.

[broomebuck]

clumbsum white oaks take the longest to produce nuts it can vary from 20 to 50 years and will produce until 200 years red oaks grow alot faster

[ozark]

Clumbsum, You are doing it perfect. When you reach social security retirement age some of the white oaks will be bearing fruit. Just think, you will have the leasure to get out there and live with them. LOL> Ben
PS: Much depends on the soil. Some sawtooth oak we planted twenty years ago are still small but they do produce a few acorns. Our soil needs help to sprout a whipperwill pea.

[youp50]

Take a look at these sights; Morse nursery and Oikos nursery. Interesting hybrids and methods used to produce precocious, early bearing, acorns. I have talked to them and decided to plant in the fall. At the price of some of these trees I will use some form of whitetail deer protection.

[bubba]

youp - 30'06 is a good whitetail deer protection tool

[youp50]

I am beginning to clear some land for the new trees. Looking for other areas of the forest to cut an opening. I am fortunate to own soil that is high, dry and sandy; low and wet; and upland clay. I try to watch and grow merchantable timber. I also have in the past groomed for a sugar bush, the bush is big enough now. I still watch out for potential trees to tap. I remove most of the aspen and basswood

I am figuring on around 4 varieties. Two high and sandy types of white oak hybrids, one has large acorns, the other small. A wet footed white oak hybrid that will also do well in the high ground. I will also try a white oak hybrid that is a leaderless, brush oak type.

I am also trying to create a few new brush areas. I hope the improved browse there will give the deer a different area to browse. There seems to be one doe on the upper part, she has not shown her fawn yet. If it made it past the bears, coyotes, and timbers. She seems to be just starting on the Ladino clover. She has been observed browsing on new growth where some tree harvesting took place last year.

[rossman40]

I was just in Lowes and the wife wanted to look at plants. What I was drawn to was they had crabapple trees that were normally $24.95 marked 75% off. These are already 6-8' tall and they had other friut trees also. I tried to make a deal and buy 10 for $50 but they said they'll have to talk to the manager. My brother lives in a subdivsion and I was telling him about it and as we were driving to his house I said it was just like that tree there (a neighbors). He goes "so thats why I see deer standing there at night". His neighbor has a couple of crabapple trees and in the fall and winter the deer will come in to the platt just for the crabapples.

[youp50]

I wish I knew which crab apples they like. My brother has a couple of trees on his place. They love the apples from one tree and leave the others alone. My neighbor has a yellow transparent tree that will show every buck in the neighborhood when the apples hit he ground. I have not been able to find a nursery with standard size trees.

If you ever get to a grown over orchard in the fall and there are black bears around. Look for their sign, they will always eat the best apples first.

[ozark]

Deer survive in most localities because they eat a very wide variety of foods. Twigs, mushrooms, acorns, fruits, nuts, bark and most all grains. turnips, beets, and nearly all gaden vegies. Persimmon are a special favorite. Not hardly as bad as goats but almost. Most young trees has to be protected to prevent bucks from rubbing the bark off with their horns. I buy a lot of corn, chops and horse feed for our feeders but that can get into your pocket book if there are many deer and bear. Raccoons and squirrel along with crows and dove can eat a lot of food also. It is all fun to see what attracts the deer. In some parts here elk are really doing damage to pastures. Ben

[jims]

Van Pines in Michigan sells a wide variety of trees. I do not know how close to the UP it is. Some have had as good of luck just planting acorns.
Actuallly my "voluteer" oak and walnuts have done in most aspects better than the seedlings I planted.

[CORVAIR]

If you can get ahold of some of the Chinkapin oak species they might well be the most desireable for deer and other wildlife.

Nut for nut, the Chinkapin acorn is the sweetest of all oak species and is the most desirable nut for whitetail deer.
These nuts contain little if any tannic acid and if you taste them yourself you will quickly see why deer like them. They also make great breads for home use.
If you ever find these growing in your whitetail woods, hunt close to them, very much the ticket.

Here is a link w/pictures and more details:
blpp.org/article.php?story=20060623064832683

[petev]

I see many different ideas here, and most of them center around what to plant. When I first bought my open land in 1986 I tried planting black walnuts and apple trees. The apple trees were destroyed by deer, and only one walnut survived. Now, surely I could have done more to protect them, although at that time I was not living in the same area. But I have found that the most cost-effective and ecological method is to manage what you have. That is, log out trees for firewood or timber, to allow the understory to grow, mow or brushhog in a fashion that Ozark described, leave some old "wolf" trees for squirrels and acorn production, every time you dig up an area of field, or disturb it in some way, plant timothy, clover or other valuable food species, apple trees that have become overgrown with hardwood trees should be freed up. My approach is to work with the land, but also manipulate it at the same time. In this area of N.Y. I was wondering why we did not have more grouse in this region (spotty), when eventually I realized that is deer-turkey country for the most part. Well, I hope I haven't come off like a preacher, it's just that this is an area that is close to me, and I enjoy the work itself. Pete

[youp50]

I tried black walnuts... they also died. Deer here will eat an apple twig up to the size of a pencil. They really need protection.

The bear have a tendency to be hard on woods grown apple trees, something about 3 or 4 hundred pounds of animal crawling about the limbs. I agree with working with what you have. I have some pretty nice red oaks that have been fertilized and freed up. The problem with the reds is they only produce every other year.

I do have clover and winter grain spots, although it is primarily a wooded parcel. Much of the uplands is devoted to maple syrup production. This is not a good habitat for deer. There are some areas that will be planted to hybrid oaks.

The side hill is too steep to log and I am not bringing firewood up that face on my back. I will lay down select trees and let them rot. Mostly aspen and basswood. There are too many yellow bellied sap suckers here that 'bird peck' the basswood, rendering it a low quality pulp wood. I do not like aspen. Although the lower 40 has 20 acres or so of 25 year old clearcut on it. Perhaps this winter I will get down there and create some new clearcut areas.

[ozark]

Youp50, I have a question regarding redoak bearing every other year. Does this mean that all the red oak trees skip the same years? Here we have some redoak acrons every year but not all trees bear every year. I really am not sure of the score here.
Ozark

[youp50]

I think that your observations are correct. I don't think every tree is on the same cycle. Here on a good year it seems all the trees have acorns, but on some bad years a few will have some acorns.

We have to deal with late frosts killing the blossoms and Eastern Tent Caterpillars. Locally they are known as ;Army Worms'. They eat the leaves from the oaks first, then aspen, then just about everything else. No oak leaves , no acorns that year. My place is small enough that I can identify and protect the oaks from the migrating caterpillars. The tree will have to fend those that were hatched on it. Next year should be the last for the worms for a while.

At the end of July, next year, the woods here will probably look like early spring. The leaves on all deciduous trees, except the red or soft maple, will be eaten to the stem. As the worms migrate they become slick on the roads and sand will be spread for traction. They have a rather annoying parasite. It is a large, striped blue fly and they are very common when the worms are bad. It will land on you and walk about. It won't bite or sting. If you ignore it, the next fly that stops by will be a deer or horse fly, you will ignore that one too. Then you will get a welt.

Not much else bothers the worms. Bears are said to eat them. I know that on a big army worm year the bear are slick and fat early in the year. The woods will smell like a zoo for all the caterpillar feces. You can hear it rain down from the tree tops.

Up here, I think that the army worms and late frosts have a tendency to get all the oaks bearing on the same bi-yearly cycle.