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Post by Triple Se7en on Oct 6, 2004 9:46:37 GMT -5
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Post by Douglas Blair on Oct 6, 2004 12:09:37 GMT -5
And I think we will hear of more and more blowing up. Why? Because of Triple-7 powder. This powder is simply too hot for the weaker inlines and sidelocks. I have heard it said that this powder in 100-grain charges will generate more pressure than 40 grains of 5744 in the Savage muzzleloader. If this is true it is too hot and needs to be "cooled down" or removed from the market before someone gets killed using this stuff. I have never used this powder and don't plan on using any, I shoot the "real stuff" in my "black powder guns".
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Post by PatrickWhite on Oct 6, 2004 18:24:14 GMT -5
I disagree. If some of the weaker inlines and sidelocks were built to better standards there wouldn't be a problem. It's interesting that so far the only problems (that I've heard about anyway) have been with the cheap brands.
I would love to know who came up with that. Especially since I've heard about people shooting 150 gr of loose powder in their inlines! Maybe they're just lucky. Of course those were shot out of the better inlines.
Really I think it comes down to the manufacturers. Some companies test with loads they'd never allow the consumer to use. In fact I believe T/C delayed allowing more than 100 gr of 777 in their inlines while they conducted tests. I'm not sure if they currently allow that yet or not. This is the attitude for the manufacturers to have, yet how many actually do?
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Post by Douglas Blair on Oct 7, 2004 8:46:22 GMT -5
I said when I found out what kind of pressures triple-7 was generating we would hear of some inlines getting blown up....so far I've been right. I presently know of three and I'm sure they may be more.
The pressure was posted by Randy Wakeman I think.
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chas
Spike
Posts: 42
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Post by chas on Oct 7, 2004 9:17:30 GMT -5
I shoot a Knight American that my wife gave to me as xmas gift. I shoot 90gr. pyrodex and a 410 gr. conical. Recoil is hefty but controllable, I tried 777 at 90 gr. and it about ripped my head off. While I'm new to this, that experience has led me to stick with pyrodex. My elk hunting buddy has a new CVA and has been shooting 100gr. 777 with the same 410 gr. conical. I am going to strongly recommend he reconsider.
Thanks for posting such important info, it really helps us newbies to the sport.
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Post by lonewolf on Oct 7, 2004 12:07:19 GMT -5
I have a cva eclipse inline 50 cal. and also a thunderhawk by t/c ,can you compare the two inline no the the t/c is well made ,but the cva is not bad..The instruction manual states 100 grains of black powder or 150 grains in pellet pyrodex,I think a lot of guy misread the instruction manual.Triple 777 powder 100 grains is hot I myself tried 85 grains in the t/c thundehawk and recoil is sharp and found my limited to be around 80 grains in the thunderhawk.
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Post by Douglas Blair on Oct 7, 2004 14:26:00 GMT -5
Lonewolf, I would think the Thuderhawk is a lot stronger made gun than a CVA but both guns are good. I just wouldn't push the loads in the CVA. When a gun manufacturer says a maximum load of 100 grains of loose powder or 150 grains of Pyrodex pellets they are looking at the peak pressure as the pellets don't have as high a pressure spike and is somewhat progressive burning. 100 grains of Triple-7 in anything will "rock your world" and may prove too much for some older/weaker guns. My advice is to lay off, and go no higher than 75-80 grains of T-7.  |
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Post by tcmech on Oct 7, 2004 16:10:40 GMT -5
I don't have any personal experience with 777 but I am sure that used in moderation it is a good product. I do agree with Doug that I think a lot more of the lower priced imports are going to turn into pipe bombs as deer season approaches due to the higher energy contained in the 777. I say this because many of the buyers of muzzleloaders don't spend enough time with their guns and are likely to fire them infrequently. With this being the case I would not be surprised if many of them have not fired their guns since last muzzleloader season. I am sure that many of these guys have not kept up with current safety issues and I think that they may have a major surprise when they go to buy some new powder and bullets.
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Post by tcmech on Oct 9, 2004 19:16:51 GMT -5
I was talking to a guy this afternoon as we came out of the woods, he shoots a knight 52 cal that he loads with 150 grains of 777 with a 285 sabot. I told him of the warnings about 777 and the manufacturers recommended loads. He replied that knight says he can shoot 150 grains of powder and a 285 grain sabot and that is what he is going to do. I know the knight is a well built gun, but that attitude with a gun not as well built will result in some one getting hurt.
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Post by PatrickWhite on Oct 9, 2004 20:31:11 GMT -5
The biggest difference is in testing. Knight, T/C and others really test their guns well. Not every manufacturer does however. Triple seven pellets hadn't even came out yet and CVA (for example) was already telling people they could shoot the magnum loads with them! It's negligence like that that is the reason problems with the cheaper guns are becoming public knowledge. I look for more regulations and damage to the muzzleloading industry as a result.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Oct 22, 2004 8:06:27 GMT -5
The biggest difference is in testing. Knight, T/C and others really test their guns well. Not every manufacturer does however. Triple seven pellets hadn't even came out yet and CVA (for example) was already telling people they could shoot the magnum loads with them! It's negligence like that that is the reason problems with the cheaper guns are becoming public knowledge. I look for more regulations and damage to the muzzleloading industry as a result. You bet. There are at least six horrible CVA Eclipse injuries I've heard of in the last few weeks. |
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Post by Hisshooter on Nov 10, 2004 11:38:21 GMT -5
From what I've heard from a Pioneer Powder distributer, 777 has a small amount of smokeless powder in it. He said that is why there is such a big spike in pressure when it is ignited. He aso told me that traditionalists were having their side hammers recocked when fired while useing 777. I shared this info with Toby Bridges many months ago, before the Savage10mlII incident.
Cal,
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Post by RandyWakeman on Nov 10, 2004 12:32:23 GMT -5
From what I've heard from a Pioneer Powder distributer, 777 has a small amount of smokeless powder in it. He said that is why there is such a big spike in pressure when it is ignited. He aso told me that traditionalists were having their side hammers recocked when fired while useing 777. I shared this info with Toby Bridges many months ago, before the Savage10mlII incident. Cal, Not true. Actually, nothing is "spikier" than good old BP-- the finer the screen, the spikier it gets. |
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Post by Hisshooter on Nov 10, 2004 22:15:42 GMT -5
Randy,
What part of my post was not true. You lost me with the short answer.
Thanks,
Cal
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Post by RandyWakeman on Nov 11, 2004 19:33:16 GMT -5
T 7 contains no nitrocelluose based propellants, as rumored by American Pioneer.
The notion that T 7 is spikier than BP is also not correct.
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Post by Hisshooter on Nov 11, 2004 22:34:22 GMT -5
Randy,
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Post by SW on Nov 12, 2004 7:28:45 GMT -5
You bet. There are at least six horrible CVA Eclipse injuries I've heard of in the last few weeks. + Do these end up in lawsuits? How about T/C, Knight, White and other high quality MLs - how many problems occur with these? Are most, if not nearly all accidents, caused by operator error? |
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Post by RandyWakeman on Nov 12, 2004 9:12:12 GMT -5
+ Do these end up in lawsuits? Darn tootin they do. |
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Post by ourway7 on Dec 9, 2004 4:13:36 GMT -5
Everyone, the old addige is you get what you pay for. As for Knight saying 150 grs of 777, I don't know who he spoke to but when I called I was told 120 grs. of 777 is an acceptable load(loose powder) But not to exceed that, and work up to it. As everyone knows 150 grs of 777 in pellet form is not really the same as 150grs of 777(loose) I would tell your friend to reconsider or call Knight again before pursuing this load further. Anyone who doesn't know the limitations of his firearm has no right to even own one, people who blow up guns reflect on all of us. granted there are some remote cases of firearms blowing up but I would say IMO that human error is the culprit. Bass pro shop sells these guns so cheap it's unbelievable, so what could it cost the maker to build one $30.00  Again you get what you pay for ;D Lou |
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Post by HighTeckRedneck on Jan 4, 2005 20:09:02 GMT -5
Found this on another message board. Rumor is that it was T7 that they were shooting, and that it was a Knight inline. I do not know if that is tru though
Lincoln County,N.C
Sunday, January 2, 2005
A teen has died after a rifle accident on New Years Day. 18 year old Matthew Shook and friends were shooting a 50-caliber black powder rifle in the yard when the rifle barrel exploded. Shook was transported to Lincoln County Hospital where he later died from his injuries.
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Post by Triple Se7en on Jan 4, 2005 23:52:08 GMT -5
HighTeckRedneck
Can you please either post here, email or PM me the website URL. Even the name of the forum home will help.
Thanks In Advance.
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Post by HighTeckRedneck on Jan 5, 2005 16:05:14 GMT -5
I would have to look for it again to give a link to the exact post, but I do believe it was on one of the boards at www.downsouthhunting.comI do not believe it was in the muzzelloader board though. I think it was in the camp fire talk board I only posted it on here because I had just read it a few min. before, and it was easy to find, copy, and paste on here. |
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eric10ml
Six pointer
one shot one kill
Posts: 90
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Post by eric10ml on Jan 15, 2005 23:47:00 GMT -5
 Well now you got me all scared I own two cva's one mag bolt and one optima pro.as well as a savage 10ml2 got to say that i have put well over 200 round thru the mag bolt with 100gr loose t7 and have had no problems.and only 50 thru the optima should i burn these guns 
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Post by Triple Se7en on Jan 16, 2005 9:46:32 GMT -5
Quote:
should i burn these guns
=====================================
Just run like the devil away from that bonfire if they're loaded... lol
All joking aside, those rifles are fine for ML hunting sensibly with moderate powder/bullet grains. Savages are "Ford Tough"..... those CVA's & my Traditions need to be cared-for like the "Whoopee Subarus" they are... lol
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Post by Bayouman on Jan 16, 2005 10:26:59 GMT -5
I've owned the CVA Optima Pro and CVA Firebolt. I followed Safety Manual and if ever and questions would call CVA. I never had any problems with them. Know many at my F&G Club who own CVA's and all like them and no problems reported. I have since sold both of my CVA's.
As far as the accidents/injuries reported, if such were due to CVA being negligent in putting out flawed & unsafe guns.....my guess is they will be out of business very shortly. I cant opine either way regarding such incidents only as to my own use.
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eric10ml
Six pointer
one shot one kill
Posts: 90
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Post by eric10ml on Jan 16, 2005 10:45:26 GMT -5
Ok thanks makes me feel better i have to add that both cva's are 45's and i shoot PR dead center .45-.357 195gr with 100gr 777-ff they both group inside inch so i would hate to have to back off but if it is the only way to be safe i will doo so.Thanks |
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jan 20, 2005 5:07:41 GMT -5
Found this on another message board. Rumor is that it was T7 that they were shooting, and that it was a Knight inline. I do not know if that is tru though Lincoln County,N.C Sunday, January 2, 2005 A teen has died after a rifle accident on New Years Day. 18 year old Matthew Shook and friends were shooting a 50-caliber black powder rifle in the yard when the rifle barrel exploded. Shook was transported to Lincoln County Hospital where he later died from his injuries. Not sure where someone could fabricate a Knight rifle into being a musket! It was a musket festival. www.news14charlotte.com/content/headlines/?SecID=41&ArID=82993 |
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Post by ourway7 on Jan 26, 2005 12:10:50 GMT -5
Thanks Randy, Had me concerned as I own numerous Knights.I believe anything can blow given all the excessive powder and bullet combinations. Most of the time it is shooter error, as bayou says he's owned one for years and never had a problem. The boy that was killed probably had no experience with a ML and just dumped powder in the weapon, shouldn't be celebrating with a firearm, alchol and gun powder do not mix. Next thing we'll have Mothers against Ml'ers. Not really a funny matter, makes me sad that things like this happen just gives the liberals more ammunition to use against us. Lou
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Again you get what you pay for ;D Lou
Well now you got me all scared I own two cva's one mag bolt and one optima pro.as well as a savage 10ml2