American Pioneer Powder does poorly in test

[Rifleman]

In the October 2007 issue of the American Rifleman on page 70 there is an article titled " Beyond a Flash in the Pan" by Bryce Towsley. Many of you allready know he is considered to be a very reputable gun writer.

In the article he published results of a very in depth and scientific test on black powders and the subsititutes. All in all the results for 32 different powders were listed.

He tested Goex, Pyrodex, Triple 7, American Pioneer Powder (including Schockeys Gold) and many others.
The test was done in a very fair fashion with some very interesting results.

On page 73 of the magazine you can find the table of results for the American Pioneer powders. 7 different combinations were tested. Out of all 32 powder combinations tested, the American Pioneer Powders did signficantly worse then all others in these categories:
Velocity- extreme spread
Velocity- standard deviation

Pressure- extreme spread
Pressure- standard deviation

The worst load of all the tested loads was a load of 2 American Pioneer Powder 50 grain sticks for a total powder weight of 100 grs. The projectile was a Hornady SST with sabot.
Just look at these numbers:
velocity
AVERAGE- 1451 FEET PER SECOND
HIGH-1658
LOW-1194
EXTREME SPREAD-464
STANDARD DEVIATION-177

pressure
AVERAGE-7,600
HIGH-10,900
LOW-5,600
EXTREME SPREAD-5,300
STANDARD DEVIAITON-2,000

I CAN HONESTLY SAY I HAVE NEVER SEEN WORSE PERFORMANCE FOR ANY COMMONLY AVAILABLE PROPELLANT.
CAN YOU IMAGINE TRYING TO SHOOT ACCURATELY WITH A LOAD THAT HAD AN EXTREME SPREAD OF 464 FEET PER SECOND?
WHAT ABOUT THAT EXTREME SPREAD ON PRESSURE OF 5,300?
JUST AMAZING

On Randy Wakemans website he has an link to an article he wrote where he ran a similar test. Here is a link:

www.chuckhawks.com/american_pioneer_powder.htm

With a 2 - 50 grain pellet load Randy reported a shot to shot variance of over 150 feet per second. Well, it seems Randy was not only correct, he was also being conservative in his comments. According to this article by Towsley, he confirms the poor performance previously reported by Wakeman.

[randywakeman]

It really is nasty stuff; the "FFg" loose powder is like gravel, and has over 200 fps shot to shot deviation. Shockey's Gold is just as bad.

What a shame.

[whyohe]

the owner of a local gun shop had tried it and he didnt like it as well. he said it shot 6 inches low at 50 yards compaird to the pyrodex.

[esmd]

I've been shooting it with good results in my old T/C Omega and Thunderhawks. Clean burning and accurate. So it's not as fast as Triple-7. Big whoop. I took a doe at 140 yards with my Omega two years ago, using two of the sticks (100 grains). The 250gr Shockwave entered just forward of the left shoulder, and exited behind the last rib on the right side (extremely quartered to me). The bullet passed through completely, and she went about 50 yards.

While it pales in comparison to using smokeless (what doesn't? ), I see no reason not to continue using it in my Thunderhawk (sold my Omega to buy the Savage).

I once shot my Omega over 20 times w/o having to break down, clean, or even swab the barrel. I could never do that when I used Triple-7. Not even close.

[esmd]

Incidentally, Towsley was pretty complimentary of the product in the article.

[Rifleman]

I certainly don't think his comments could be considered as complimentary but I suppose that is open to perspective.
But the question here is not that it shoots slower, but that the velocitys are inconsistent. Compared to all other tested propellants, the results were terrible. If you like the product, then fantastic, but the numbers don't lie.
I frankly don't care one bit what propellant someone chooses, as long as it is safe. However, anything that has a pressure spread of over 5,000 PSI, even that becomes suspect.

[tasaman]

I used this powder last year and can share my expirience with it. I had the Shocky's Gold in stick form and I did not like it one bit. When loading, it would shave off a good bit of powder sometimes and some sticks were small enough to fall right in. When I got to the end of the bottle, there was a whole lot of left over powder at the bottom. This was from the sticks rubbing together in the bottle. It did not shoot well with any known good shooting bullets in my gun. I've had a lot of problems with it and gave it a fair shake and ended up using the entire bottle just to prove that it was the powder and not me/the gun/or any other variable. Went back to FFg Trip 7 and had great results. I think I know now why since the velocities that American Rifleman was getting had such a large spread. I will say one good thing about this powder is if you are recoil shy you will love this stuff. It kicks like a fly even with 300 gr bullets. I know some that are using the loose powder with good results but IMO the sticks suck. Stay away from this product.

[cnymuzguy]

I shot the older CleanShot FFg loose in my A&H and had great results. Very low SD in numerous tests. Never used the pellets. I certainly has different characteristics then Pyrorust or 777, but my gun didn't rust. Yes velocity was down compared to 777, but 120 gr pushed a 275 gr bullet at just over 1700 fps and grouped excellent. It shot consistent the next year(s) after storage, even thought the powder caked a bit.

The older pyrodex could be pretty flaky, too. I wasted a ton of lead trying to find it's "sweet spot" in other guns.

[mike3132]

I wrote a report on here a couple years ago on APP. I found loose FFF much better in constituency than FF. I loved the no fouling and easy clean up but the numbers I got over my chrony were as others reported. I had as much as 600 fps spread with the same load. I bought two cans of SHokeys Gold and had the same results. The only difference between the two was the color.

If it would be consistent I would be my BP sub powder of choice for smoke guns but its not. I too don't recommend buying it. Mike

[ozark]

I am so inexperienced with BP that I can add nothing constructive. But, I did get a broad smile when the velocity of 1700 fPS was posted. I started ML with smokeless and I can't see going to BP. It is interesting that sponsoring a wildlife show can sell so much even if tests prove that it is an inferior product. WOW.

[Rifleman]

It is interesting that sponsoring a wildlife show can sell so much even if tests prove that it is an inferior product.

I agree Ozark. Used to be that when a famous person endorsed a product or accepted the sponsorship you had a reasonable expectation that the person would consider their reputation before putting it on the line.
If there was a chance that the person did not know the product was inferior, I would be all in favor of giving them the benefit of the doubt. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I think it will be interesting, what if anything develops. Of course I am sure contracts are in force, but at this point, I think the viewers would express their dissatisfaction and that at some point changes would be made. At least there should be......

[ozark]

Oh well, a nickle aint worth a dime anymore and truth in advertising is so rare it goes unrecognized.

[whyohe]

the gun store owner and i where discussing the powder a bit and we where wondering if putting a square peg in a round hole could be a reason why. so much air gap around pellets?

[Semisane]

Well guys, I bought two pounds of JSG FFG loose a couple of months ago because it was on sale real cheap. I opened a can when I got it home and it did indeed look like gravel. It's been sitting in my closet ever since because I didn't have much hope for it.

Last Friday I shot some JSG for the first time.

After having real good results with 90 grains under a 385 grain Hornady Great Plains at 100 yards out of my Lyman Mustang, I tried 100 grains at a 50 yard target with my favorite bullet - the 300 grain Speer Gold Dot in a Harvester crush rib sabot. Temperature was 88 degrees with 90% humidity.

Here are both targets.


With the Gold Dots, the average velocity was about 700 fps less than what I get with 100 grains T-7. It made a lot of smoke, but was absolutely the cleanest burning powder I have ever used. Shot #1 was with a clean, dry barrel and I wiped with one dry patch between shots. Number 2 through 5 loaded just as easily and load #1.

I will definitely be trying it again with stiffer charges to see if the accuracy holds up at higher velocities.

[windy]

Has any one used this powder wieghing it instead of a volume measerment
Just wondering if it would help with results