Wildcat information

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

It seems that Indiana is going to pass a new law that will allow rifles for whitetail deer, but they have limited the bullet and cartridge size.

The rules are:

1) .357" and larger bullet diameter
2) 1.16" minimum case length
3) 1.625 maximum case length

I've got this wild idea about a repeating rifle that has a greater range for harvesting a deer than the current slug guns, but still falls under their regulations. i.e. a 50 bmg necked down to .358" with a case length of 1.6"

Where can I find the dimensions of different wildcat cartridges, and what is a good source of information on making wildcat cartridges?

Blue-Dot-37.5

[jims]

Question: Would that be for straight walled pistol cartridges or centerfire rifles? It sounds more like our Ohio pistol regs.

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

That's a good question. They talk about "common pistol rounds" (see cut/copy below) but then when they spell out the proposed law, it's worded differently.

Here's both:


1. Clarifies the license requirements for hunting deer in the firearms and muzzleloader seasons to state that a
firearms license is required in the firearms season and a muzzleloader license is required to hunt deer with a
muzzleloader in the muzzleloader season. The changes also list the youth license and lifetime license that
can be used to take deer during these seasons. The other proposed modification would allow rifles with only
pistol cartridges to be used when hunting deer during the firearms season. Over the years, the DNR has
received many emails and letters from hunters proposing a rule that would allow the use of rifles chambered
for pistol cartridges for deer hunting. The language in the attached allows the use of rifles and limits
cartridge dimensions to those common to pistol rounds, maintaining the DNR's long-time position of
allowing only short to medium range equipment for taking deer. The DNR is proposing this rule modification
in order to obtain public comment on this issue.

But in the wording of the proposed law, they specify:

(f) The following requirements apply to the use of firearms under this section:
(1) A shotgun:
(A) must have a gauge 10, 12, 16, 20, or .410 bore loaded with a single projectile; and
(B) may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no shells in the chamber
or magazine.
(2) A handgun must:
(A) conform to the requirements of IC 35-47-2;
(B) have a barrel at least four (4) inches long; and
(C) fire a bullet of two hundred forty-three thousandths (.243) inch diameter or larger.
All 38 special ammunition is prohibited. The handgun cartridge case, without bullet, must be at least one
and sixteen-hundredths (1.16) inches long. A handgun must not be concealed. Full metal jacketed bullets
are unlawful. A handgun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if there are no
shells in the chamber or magazine. All 25/20, 32/20, 30 carbine, and 38 special ammunition is
prohibited.
(3) A muzzle loading gun must be .44 caliber or larger, loaded with a bullet at least three hundred fiftyseven
thousandths (.357) inch or larger. A muzzle loading handgun must be single shot, .50 caliber or
larger, loaded with bullets at least .44 caliber and have a barrel at least twelve (12) inches long. The length
of a muzzle loading handgun barrel is determined by measuring from the base of the breech plug,
excluding tangs and other projections, to the end of the barrel, including the muzzle crown. A muzzle
loading gun must be capable of being loaded only from the muzzle, including both powder and bullet. A
muzzle loading gun may be possessed in the field outside lawful shooting hours only if:
(A) for percussion firearms, the cap or primer is removed from the nipple or primer adapter; or
(B) for flintlock firearms, the pan is not primed.
(4) A rifle must:
(A) fire a bullet of three hundred fifty-seven thousandths of an inch (.357) diameter or larger;
(B) have a minimum case length of one and sixteen hundredths (1.16) inches; and
(C) have a maximum case length of one and six hundred twenty-five thousandths (1.625) inches.

So, how would you interpret it? For handgun hunting, all they have is a minimum cartridge size, a 30-06 Contender is legal.....

Blue-Dot-37.5

[wilmsmeyer]

What am I missimg? Sounds like you can hunt with a rifle of .357 inch or larger. Wouldn't this include .375 mag, 378 Wby Mag, 45-70 etc etc?

If so this is silly as these are far greater gun then reasonable for normal deer hunting. I'm a little confused on the reg's.

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

You've got the caliber right, but look at the case length minimum and maximums. But, they don't specify the case diameter.........

That's why I was thinking a bottleneck cartridge will be OK for the rifle part of the proposed regs. Now if you are looking at the handgun regs, yes anything goes providing you can handle the recoil.

Blue-Dot-37.5

[Rifleman]

Well right now you can use a 300 mag in a handgun. I believe the Savage Stryker and the Weatherby pistol is available in a 300 mag. But if you look at the actual ballistics in a 300 win mag in a pistol barrel, then velocity is very similar to a .308 pistol. I need to look at that again but I think I am close to the truth. I looked at this one time before and if I recall it seemed to me that one could get just about the same velocity from a 15 inch barrel with a 308 that one could get with a 15 inch barreled 300 win mag, but with less recoil due to a lighter charge of quicker powder hence less total mass of the entire load. But like I said I have to research that again.
Now as far as the rifle regs go, it seems that there is no restriction on action type or if a cartridge is a bottle neck or straight wall cartridge. That makes for some interesting thinking.

The min. bullet diameter of . 357 will hamper those seeking speed as well as the max cartridge length of only 1.625. Those are the restrictions we must work within. Ok, so be it.

Bluedot may have called it right by taking a .243 WSSM and cutting it back a bit and blowing it out for a .35 at 2700 fps. I think it might be doable but difficult and expensive, cartridge development is not a cheap venture. Especially having custom chamber reamers made. Also what about this .35 X bullet? What are the numbers on this little jewel? What is the SD, and BC on the 180 gr?
What powders would you use in the little fireplug to get that much velocity and what kind of pressures are you gonna get in that short of a cartridge with that heavy of a bullet at the proposed speed of 2700 fps. The new super magnums on the market today make some very impressive pressure. For example the 300 RUM with a 180 gr. If I recall that bad boy has a chamber pressure of over 70,000 PSI ! That is alot of pressure. Another thing, what is the expansion envelope of the 180 gr .35 X bullet? What speed is it designed to start expanding at and what speed is too much ? I would think it would handle 2700 FPS, but I do not know for sure. The two rifle cartridges in .35 that come to mine are the 35 Rem and 35 Whelen. Well they both are too long for the regulation. The 35 Rem is a fine deer cartridge but a dog in the speed category. The 35 Whelen is a bit faster and a fine elk gun but certainly not a fast stepper. If I recall it might run a 220 gr at about 2600- 2700 fps. Well that is not right, I just looked at the AA reloading data and the fastest I found was a 205 lead bullet at 2700 fps. Then oh yeah is the .358 Norma mag with a 225 gr at over 2900 fps. Well that is a pipe dream for us, that just aint gonna ever happen in a cartridge of 1.625 unless RB sends us some rocket fuel. Hmm this could turn into a real interesting discussion. I need to think about this one some more.

First thing that comes to mine is the AR-15 platform. There is the 300 whisper. That is a .222 Rem blown out to .30 cal and shoots a 180 at sub sonic velocitys. Usually loaded with H110 or equivalent powder. Ok that won't work, low velocity and pressure, and too small a bullet. There is the .458 Beowulf, (spelling?), But that is too long and too slow I imagine. Hmm what about a shortened and blown out 6.8 spc? Still getting a 35 cal up to 2700 fps in a that short of a cartridge would require more case capacity and generate more pressure then the AR-15 could handle most likely....

Still thinkin out loud here...
The 243 WSSM might be the right parent cartridge. Now who is gonna be the poor sucker that buys the first set of custom chamber reamers....
What about twist rate? What powder to use?

Wait just a darn minute. I just went to the Barnes website and I do NOT see a 180gr .35 bullet listed anywhere! Scott what are you talking about? Where did you come up with this idea for a .35 180 gr X bullet? Can you provide a link to this bullet?

Best .35 long range bullet by Barnes that I could come up with is the .358 Triple Shock in a 225 grainer with a BC of .359
That might have some possibility but getting it up to 2700 fps in a cartridge with a max length of 1.625 would be darn difficult.
Sounds like somebody who knew ballistics and agreed with the short range premise was involved with drafting the regulation. As far as a long range cartridge in Indiana, I think it is gonna be very difficult to beat a 7mm-08 fired from a 15inch handgun. Maybe there are some other handgun cartridges that will beat it for flatness and long range shooting, but I don't know of any factory cartridges. It is a true blue 300 yd gun, if you can shoot it well enough. With a good rest 300 yds with a 7mm-08 pistol is not that difficult. You just give up a lot in the handling characteristics with the long range handguns and quick shooting on moving targets are just almost impossible except for someone with more skill then I.

This is funny, the way I see it, it is quite possible that the guys with Smokless muzzle loaders and centerfire bottleneck handguns will have more range then guys with legal centerfire rifles. Only in Indiana ;D What a hoot!

Maybe a Ruger semi auto in 44 mag would not be so bad after all...
Ok Scott fire away, what am I missing here?

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

What are you missing? Load From A Disk v 5.0! That's what! ;D

O.K. I called Barnes and they are discontinuing the 180 gr. "X" bullet...... It (and the 225 gr. bullet) will open down to 1800 fps, below that and it'll act as a solid.

I'll get some info from the program and I'll be back....

Blue-Dot-37.5

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

O.K., I'm back.

48 gr. of Varget with the 225 gr. Barnes TSX in a 26" barrel will give me MV of 2373 fps, cup 48620. The bullet has a BC of .359, zeroed @ 200 Yds puts the bullet 3.12" high @ 100 Yds, and 12.44" low @ 300, with 1726 fps and 1488 lb/ft of energy @ 300 if the program is correct.

The case has a volume of 54.8 gr. of water.

Should I look at something else? ;D O.K. I will!

A .416 Rigby shortened and necked has a volume of 68.1 gr of water and can get a MV of 2558 with the same bullet. zeroed @ 200, it's 2.5" high @ 110 Yds, -10.62 @ 300 with a velocity of 1867 fps and 1742 lb/ft of energy @ 300. But the WSSM would be cheaper to wildcat than the Rigby.

Now, if you could shorten & neck a .50 BMG, that would give you 107.6 gr of water that would hold 86.6 grains of H4831 for a MV of 2991 fps. 200 Yd zero with the same bullet will be 1.69" high @ 120 Yds, and -7.33 @ 300 Yds with a velocity of 2227 fps and 2447 lb/ft @ that 300 Yd mark. But I don't know how practical that project would be!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[bubba]

50 whisper !

just come to michigan and bring your rifles !

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

bubba said:

50 whisper !

just come to michigan and bring your rifles !

When does season open?

[Rifleman]

Scott ok so lets just say you get a 243 wssm shortened and blown, what powder are you gonna stuff it with and what chamber pressures are you gonna expect?

[Blue-Dot-37.5]

Dwight:

See my post from yesterday @ 6:31 p.m. (it's above........)