Reloading question

[RAF]

On another thread in the firearms section I mentioned the trouble I had reloading for a Remington Model 4 chambered in 30-06. The small base dies I had weren't working very well so today I found a new set of RCBS small base dies. I set it up and resized one piece of brass. The original problem I had was I couldn't get the brass resized to factory size and the rifle just wouldn't cycle right. Came within 3/1000 and I think it was Rifleman who said that would make a difference. Today after risize one piece I got it down to 5/10000th. Is this going to be OK. I also plan to trim the bass down to factory length which is less than recommended length in my manual. OAL will also be same as factory, again less than manual. What do you think.

[bubba]

maybe you have a tight chamber in your rifle ?

[RAF]

I don't know. I've had the rifle for 22 years, since new, and a lot of ammunition has gone through it. Never once had a problem with factory. Since the beginning I've shot Winchester Silver Tips in 150 grain. For an auto loader, it's very accurate and close to bolt action accuracy. Only times it's skipped a beat was with the reloads. With what I spent on componants I could have bought 5 or 6 boxes of factory but I had fun making them.

[whyohe]

raf are you doing a full case resize or just a neck? the reason i ask is that when you shoot them they should form to your chamber and shrink slightly. if you can chamber an empty just fine then maybe your setup of the die isn't just right. the reason you must resize the neck is so the bullet wont fall down or out of the neck of the case and other reasons. id recommend checking the size of the factory load cases and a once fired case and the case you just resized that is giving you the problem and compare the differences and see where you can correct the problem. if you have the info you can even call RCBS and tell them your problem with those measurements and they might be able to help you.

[bubba]

could it be your shoulder is not correct ?

try sizing a factory piece of brass ( pull the bullet first ! ) and see if that willl chamber ......

[RAF]

whyohe, I was full length sizing with a regular die and that didn't work. Everything I've read said small base dies were needed. I had a set of Lyman but they didn't work very well. They were used when I got them. I've bought a new set of RCBS small base dies and can bring the brass down to within 5/10000th of the factory brass. The one thing I did that with the ammo I made that didn't work was the OAL. I made it to the same OAL as my manual suggested which is longer that the factory loads. Also the OAL of the brass is longer than factory bullets. I think if I trim the brass down to factory length and keep the OAL of finished bullet to factory length, that, that might work. I won't know for a while. Can't get to the range cause we just had the worst blizzard in 50 years and I'm sure I'll need snowshoes to get in there . Might have to make some up and head out into the country and just shoot at a tree or something.
Bubba, no I haven't tried to resize a factory round. Right now they're 5/10000th smaller than what I can get with my small base dies so I don't think it would do anything to it.

[bubba]

RAF

I was thinking that maybe your shoulder position is in the incorrect location, i.e. perhaps it needs to be "pushed" back some.

I had the same trouble with my brothers 7400 in 30-06, had reloads that worked fine in my bolt action, really jammed his rifle up tho - lol !

Maybe you gotta only use new brass in that rifle and save the fired stuff for bolt actions?

A small base die should get it down there tho.

good luck.

-bubba

[dans]

The over all length could be the critical factor. I set up all my reloading for semiautos to match the factory. I have a 740 Remington and just use regular dies to load once fired brass that have been fired in that rifle only. I have never had a problem with reloads set up this way.

[RAF]

A couple of days ago our local gun shop reopened in a new building and I had to have a look. I bought some powder (IMR4895) for this project along with some bullets (Nosler accu bonds) in 150 grain. I cleaned up some brass(fires once) and started measuring the factory loads. I averaged the size for the length of brass. Did the same with the OAL of the finished bullets. I then started resizing, with the small base dies, and trimmed to the average length of the factory brass. I then primed the brass, loaded the powder and seated bullets to the average OAL of the factory rounds. After I was done I realized that since these are going through an auto loader they should be crimped. I never liked using the crimping feature on the seating die because if your brass isn't all exactly the same length, you damage the shoulder of the brass. For that reason I have crimping dies on hand and quickly set them up and crimped the bullets. I only made 15 today. When I fire them, they'll quickly tell me if they're going to work. If they do, I'll make more and go about the buisness of zeroing them. I'm sure they're shoot different the factory stuff I've been using. Only problem is where to shoot. After the blizzard we had last week, I'm sure I won't be able to get into the range with out snow shoes, which I don't own . Might just have to take a drive out into the country and just shoot.

[whyohe]

good luck raf! hope you get it figured out

[RAF]

Today I was at the range and test fired the rounds I made a ways back in the winter. For the most part they functions good. Had a couple that didn't cycles right but they were the last few. I attribute that too the rifle getting pretty warm 'cause didn't wait much. Only cooling time was when re-filling the mag.
What was really interesting was the velocities I got. I loaded with 150 grain accu bond. Factory 150 ammo has an advertised muzzle velocity of 2910. I was consistently get over 3000 FPS. They all grouped real nice too. Wasn't even trying for groups. Whole purspose was to see if they cycle.

[whyohe]

congrats RAF!! ;D glad you seem to have it close to what you want.

[mistered]

raf said:

Today I was at the range and test fired the rounds I made a ways back in the winter. For the most part they functions good. Had a couple that didn't cycles right but they were the last few. I attribute that too the rifle getting pretty warm 'cause didn't wait much. Only cooling time was when re-filling the mag.
What was really interesting was the velocities I got. I loaded with 150 grain accu bond. Factory 150 ammo has an advertised muzzle velocity of 2910. I was consistently get over 3000 FPS. They all grouped real nice too. Wasn't even trying for groups. Whole purspose was to see if they cycle.

I think you would get better velocities with IMR4350 or a similar burn rate powder. 4895 doesn't take full advantage of the volume available in the 30-06. This is really pronounced when pushing heavier bullets. According to my Speer manual almost all loads are faster with 4350. My 30-06 loading friends are quite partial to IMR4350.
-Ed

[mistered]

RAF - I forgot to add that a semi-auto rifle needs a squeeky clean chamber to function reliably and is the type of action that is quickest to foul its chamber up. Maybe your Model 4 has developed some minor chamber corrosion as it aged. I think your cases are plently small for this rifle.
-Ed

[RAF]

First off the velocities I was getting are 100 FPS over factory advertised for a 150 grain bullet. Don't think I need any more speed. The other day I was in my gun smiths shop and told him about this and he told me to back the load off, it's too hot. There were no signs of pressure on the cases but he said I'll end up damaging the rifle. He suggested 1/2 a grain back.
As far as the chamber is concerned it's clean. This rifle cycles factory ammo perfectly, but I wanted to hand load for it. The secret, I guess, is to duplicate factory size, which I did and seems to be working.

[mistered]

Raf- Have you compared IMR4895 with IMR4350 in your loading manual? Sounds like your gunsmith is leary of IMR4895 when using enough to beat factory velocities. IMR 4895 is a very versitile powder but is in its element in smaller cases. They include many different powders vs. many bullet weights in the books I feel as a convenience for the possibility of using one powder for several size cartridges. With IMR4350 or a similar powder you could easily top factory velocities while developing less pressure than a cartridge charged with IMR4895. I used IMR4895 for a while in my 6mm rem. with fair results but a knowledgable gun nut friend turned me on to the advantages of a slower burning powder. With my 100 grain deer load over 4350 I get a cool 150 fps more than I used to with a max load of 4895. My son uses 4895 for his .223 for which it is the berries. Just trying to help. If I sound like a know-it-all it is because I'm kind of a know-it-all. Pretty boring to listen to in person too. Good luck and good shooting.
-Ed

[RAF]

I like 4350 too. Use it in a 243 w/ 100 grain bullets. Shoots great. Tried it in my 300 WSM and it was a flop, IMO, accuracy wise. Velocity was way down from factory too. I started with 4895 way back and using my manual as a guide to powder selection chose 4895. I started loading for my son 30-06 and it preformed great, MOA when he did his part. I chose to try it in my auto loader and the load was right at the max from my manual and the groups were great, even though I wasn't really trying(maybe thats the answer ) Thanks for the advise though. I think I'll leave that load alone for now. Likely won't take the rifle out hunting now that there's a new kid in the gun room.

[RAF]

Shot the rifle today with the reduce loads and it functioned great. I notice a sharp drop in velocity and poi. 1/2 a grain shouldn't have done that, so when I got home I checked my notes. Should have checked them before I loaded these. I was sure the first ones were 50.5 grains and therefore loaded 50 grains. Well the first loads were 51.5, max recommended by my manual. I reduced the load by 1 1/2 grains. That explains the marked drop in velocity and poi. Was getting velocities between 2870 and 2890, not far off factory. Don't know what I'll do. I guess I'll leave them for now . The rifle has been zeroed with these loads and is good to go.

[RAF]

Today I decided the loads are probably a little light. I wanted to reclaim the powder and save the bullets, so out came my RCBS bullet remover. The bullets were crimped so it to several extra wacks to get the bullets out. I had to replace the chuck as it wore out. Anyway, got the bullets out with no damage. I resized the necks are the initial crimping and reloaded with the proper amount of powder, reseated the bullets and crimped again. Now will have to head back to the range and try them. Hope to get close to factory velocity and decent groups.
Frankly, I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm not sure if I'll take this rifle hunting. I have a new 300 WSM to use plus the savage. I guess someone might want to use it. A friends X likes to hunt and doesn't own a center fire yet and she's used it before and taken deer. We'll see. There is a certain amount of satisfaction in make bullets that work.

[youp50]

There is a lot of satisfaction in making a rifle work. You have gone down the same trail as I am traveling with a Savage 99 in a 308. I ended up with RCBS small base dies to consistently close the action. My rifle is wonderfully accurate with WW 150 Power Points from the factory. I think I will try W748. I have tried RL 15 and 4350 with out achieving anywhere near the kind of accuracy I get with the factory loads. I will get back to it soon, turkey hunting got in the way. Maybe a health issue or two.

If we weren't so pigheadedly single minded about getting something to work in these guns, look at all the range and and reloading bench time we would miss out on. I have a tendency to work with a rifle until I have a good load or two and then look for another rifle. I feel it is a necessary duty of the capitalist, you know keep the system operating.

[RAF]

This evening I spent a couple more hours at the range with the latest load. They still function great and the groups were better. I stepped up the load by .7 grains(.7 under max too) and got velocities about factory advertised for a 150 grain bullet. I didn't have to adjust the zero much and am 1 1/2 in high at 100 yds. I think this will work and don't have any more plans for it.

[Iamsignal3]

IMR 4895 is the powder of choice for most 06 auto loaders, get much slower then that in burn rate and your port pressure goes up and is hard on the action and the op rod. Sounds like you got the thing right on with the 4895.