Muzzel velocity? 300g shock waves w/150g of 777

[tcomegashooter]

Hi, I am new to the board and am trying to figure out what my muzzel velocity is out of my TC Omega using 300g Shock Waves with 150g of 777 pellets? I received this rifle as a Christmas present the first year it came out and it was blessed by the smoke pole gods! I consistantly get 3 shot groups so tight at 100 yards with this load that that I could cover up with a nickle! I get 1/2" groups with the 250g Shock Waves with 150g of 777 pellets as well. My question is I am trying to figure out my muzzel velocity. I can remember that Hornady advertised the 300g shock waves with 150g of tripple 777 around 2050fps or so and sighted in 3" high at 100 yards it had a 3.9" drop at 200 if I remembered? Well, I am getting ready for an upcomming elk hunt and am figuring out my drop, energy, and max lethal distance. I dont believe I am shooting this fast and will try my chrony out this weekend. I sighted my rifle in today, 3 3/4" high at 100 yards. I took an average of a 5 shot group today at 200 yards. Two bullets struck 4" low, one hit 4.5" low, and the last two were 5" low. After I did this and figured out the drop, I shot at my elk target at 200 yards. I had the first 2 bullets both in the heart of my 3d elk target and the 3rd a little to the left in the lungs. I was a 2.5" group. Not bad being I knew I flinched a little. I am using a Leupold VX1 2x7 and plan on throwing on a Nikon Monark 2.5x10 with the BDC rectical and trying to figure out the drop this summer before I go on my hunt. I tried to play around with the Hornady ballistic charts today and if I figured it out correctly I must be shooting only around 1920 fps? Has anyone chronied this load for comparison? If so my energy levels are way lower than expected. I have put down Whitetails with authority in the past out to 300 yards and feel confident to this distance but is this load lethal enough for an elk this far? I thought I was pushing around 1200fpe of energy at 300 but if I am shooting this slow according to Hornady I am only around 950fpe? What is my max distance for energy transfer can I lethaly take an elk with this load.

[wilmsmeyer]

With either scenario, a big hole through the heart and/or lungs of any animal will kill it quickly. The biggest goal should be insuring that the bullet, not the speed of it, is up to that challenge at any angle.

I personally would ditch the shockwaves if on an elk hunt. If you get a close shot and hit big bones.....?? Or a quartering on shot at any distance.

An Elk is big. I would try a 300 Barnes Original or a copper bullet (TMZ 290's or MZ 300's). Even if your 200 yd groups were 6 inches RELIABLY, I'd go with them. You will still be in the vitals solidly and your bullet will get to where it needs to go at all the speeds you are talking about.

At 200 yds, a MV of 1900-2000 fps should give you all kinds of room to adjust your trajectory to aim dead on on an Elk from 0-200 yds.

If you HAVE to shoot the shockwave I'd only take a broadside behind the shoulder shot and pass on any weird angles. I'd hate to feel that limited! It may come down to shoulder smashing shot. You won't be disappointed with a stronger bullet and a slightly larger "hunting" group.

[rkrobson]

I've shot 3 T-7 pellets and the 300 SST/SW in an Encore, MK85. Savage, and Ultimate, all chronographing between 1930 and 1985 fps. I will suggest using 3 Pyro pelltets , as I found the accuracy and consistancy better. Try spit patching or using Ballistol(1 wet 1 dry reversed ) between shots. The biggie here is to let the barrel never get hot between shots, Ray

[AJ]

You should be right around the 2000 fps mark (+-). Even with the 300 gr SST that has a decent BC, you still are limited to about 225 yards. The energy level will drop fast with these bullets. I will be shooting Precision Rifle's 340 gr Dead Center with BH 209 powder for my elk hunt in 3 months.

[tcomegashooter]

I took off my VX1 2x7 and put on a Nikon Monark 2.5x10 with a BDC rectical a couple of days ago after you posters helped me out with ballistics along with my guess. I called Nikon and they gave me the measurements of there BDC circles in this optic. From the inches in drop they told me their circles should be dead on at 200, 250, and 300 yards when I am sighted in 3 3/4" high at 100 yards. I have only had a chance to shoot out to 200 so far being its the longest distance at the range. I sighted the gun in and shot one 3 shot group at 200 yards. I used the first circle and centered in on a 2" black square. I laid all 3 shots in the square getting a 1 3/4" group! I have harvested Whitetails out to 300 yards with a muzzel loader and have DRT'd them at this range. I feel confident in my shooting capabilities to harvest an animal at this type of distance but dont plan on taking a shot like this if I dont have to. Energy levels from what I can see will be just a little under 1200 fpe around 250 and close to 900fpe around 300. I would like to stick to the 200 yards and under shot but If I see an animal of a lifetime I want to be ready and capable of that long shot. After all at 300 yards I still have more energy than a bow and arrow. I guess it all comes down to shot placement. I will keep practicing all summer long and post how my grouping is at 250, 300, and beyond. I can't believe how tight of groups I get with my Omega! This can't be common for a muzzel loader can it?

[AJ]

Wrongo TCOS, the standard for whitetails is 1000 fp of energy. For elk its 1500 ftlbs. Your setup runs out of steam ~225 yards. Why risk a lifetime quality animal with a risky shot? Bullets and arrows kill by different methods. Do not confuse the two. Arrows kill by hemmoraging caused by the razor sharp broadhead. Bullets kill by shock trauma to central nervous system. With arrows, kinetic energy means very little, momentum means a lot more.

BTW, what state are you hunting?

[tcomegashooter]

I understand 225 yards is where everyone says is the max lethal distance for harvesting a whitetail or elk but after a 300 yard shot a couple of years back I tend to give my gun and load more credit. I realize I took a spine shot which anchored the deer. But if you only could have seen the coffee can size hole it put in the animal at this distance you wouldn't have believed it. I dont plan on shooting an elk over 200 yards but want to be ready for a chance of a lifetime if it presents itself further out. I have confidence in my shooting ability to harvest an animal out to 350 yards with my muzzel loader but probably will never shoot one this far unless its a last day, last hour chance.

[wilmsmeyer]

tcomegashooter,

I tend to agree with you and tend to disagree with the standards for energy when it comes to guns and game loads. Yes I've heard the 1000 lb rule of thumb that some talk about. Who made that rule and how did they determine it?

What is the energy level of a .44 mag pistol that started a 240 gr SP at a 1400 fps MV at 50 Yds? Answer: About 800 ft lbs. Take a hard cast bullet at the same speeds and the energy will be the same and you will smash every bone in its path and cut a large hole through vital organs resulting in major "hemorrage".

Some consider a well placed .357 mag bullet minimum for deer. A 158 gr bullet starting out at 1250 fps has about 475 ft lbs energy at 50 yds.

All I mean to say here is instead of putting 3000 lbs energy into the guts of any deer I think the 475 lbs to the vitals will do the job just fine. Energy is just a number. Severed aeorta's and non-functioning lungs filling with blood is death to any animal and usually quickly....just like with arrows.

Just the way I see it.

[AJ]

Good luck getting that 475 pounds of energy through an elk's shoulder bones. Ya'll need to stick with deer.

[whyohe]

AJ, for security reasons i would probably not shoot that far my self with a muzzle loader using BP or subs. no one here was saying to shoot an elk with a .357, just that the standard you quoted was for deer and yet we know of people who effectively killed deer with it. now thats a little under half of the energy you said needed and i know of a friend personally that did it. so maybe 900 FPE is sufficent, it is still over half of what you quoted as minimal FPE. i know elk have bigger bone and thicker hide but a 1/2 to 3/4 inch hole in an animal will cause lost of hemraging. shot placement is critical too though.

[wilmsmeyer]

Energy is not a magic number that can be used itself as a determining factor in killing. My .243 load with a 55 gr bullet at 4000 fps generates 1950 ft lbs energy at the muzzle. At 25 yds it probably has well over 1500 ft lbs energy. NOT an elk load at 25 yds at any angle.

A bullet that passes through the vitals and cuts a hole regardless of energy will kill animals. Arrows, Hard cast handgun bullets and bullets with great mass to name a few. Obviously these bullets require whatever "energy" is needed to drive them to the vitals. An arrow takes little energy to do this. A hard cast handgun bullet fired from a handgun or muzzleloader requires more energy then an arrow. The point is that perforating the vitals causes major hemmorage which kills. Damage to the nervous system is caused mostly by spinal and brain shots as few double lunged BIG game animals collapse at the shot.

I am in no way attempting to be argumentative just being factual based on experience. I have killed at least 20 deer with my bow and over 100 with a gun. I have had heart/lung deer drop just as fast with an arrow hit as with my Savage which hits them with 4000 ft lbs of energy. By fast I mean after a short death sprint. The only deer I've ever seen crumple have suffered spinal damage or structural damage which prevented them from remaining upright.

Any bullet that can completely penetrate a whitetail at any angle should at least be able to reach the vitals of an elk IMO. I've heard the figures that AJ has presented for many years and I'm sure he meant them only as a rule of thumb. I've also wondered how this is determined and by whom? I'm sure an arm chair scientist figured this out using animal weight and other criteria. As for a bullet I would use on Elk, I guess it would not be a shockwave and would stick to a bullet with the ability to drive though a big animal at any angle evry time. A hardcast bullet or a copper or a BO comes to mind.

With a broadside shot through the ribs you'll probably be fine with the shockwave.

[JS]

Problem with hitting an elk or even a deer in the vitals EACH and EVERY TIME from those extreme distances is wind drift. Up high there are always thermals and crosswinds. Having hunted elk for 35yrs with a centerfire, I can tell you there have been very few times I had calm conditions when a shot was presented, there's always a slight breeze or worse. There's more to it than just putting the 300yd circle on the animal and pulling the trigger.

[butcher45]

As far as energy required to kill efficiently, I think that depends on the style of bullet, and the velocity you are shooting it at.

Someone posted that bullets kill by shocking the nervous system. Some do (space-age bullets), but that is not how an old-fashioned cast slug with a big meplat kills any more than it is how an arrow kills.

The Displacement Value formula (meplat times velocity divided by 4) used for cast bullets makes a lot of sense to me. FPE doesn't fit into the equation.

I have been advised it is a good idea to avoid the shoulder joint of an animal no matter what you are shooting it with, especially when using soft lead muzzleloading projectiles, or explosive sabot rounds.

Consider the original Colt.45 loading, 250grains@850fps, was considered suitable for taking out cavalry horses, and 255 grains at 950fps will completely penetrate a deer lengthwise according to John Linebaugh. That's one of his general purpose loads, and also the load his wife and kid use to kill deer with.

I killed this ram with a 255grainer with a .32 meplat going a measly 650fps or so. That's only about 240fpe. Granted he was only about 15 yards away, but the performance at that low velocity was still pretty impressive. When I put a 255grainer through the heart and lungs he ran about 15 yards, got all stiff, and fell dead.
The meat processor was flabbergasted and told me the ram appeared to him to have been shot with a 30-06.
I blame the .32 meplat. ;D

The wound shown in the picture is the exit wound on the off shoulder. Shot was placed right in the armpit on the other side. Yea it's just a little ol' ram, but it was only 240fpe as well.

[tcomegashooter]

As far as penatration goes, At 300 yards, I shot completely through a 9" in diameter log and the bullet kept on going. At 300 I am getting 4" groups with my Muzzel loader. Not only dose it group tight enough not to hit shoulder I still wouldnt be afraid to hit it at this distance. I will guarantee you its not as tough as the log. I blew out a complete chunk of whitetail backbone at this distance. There are too many people who get hung up reading about velocities and terminal performance instead of hands on these days. There are also way too many people that say they hit an animal in the shoulder or in the vitals at far distances and never recovered the animal and I can bet you they think they hit them in the right spot is because thats where they aimed...but not where the bullet hit. I can detest at 300 to 350 yards I can hardly see the target with my naked eyes, let alone tell you where the bullet hit untill after I walk within a few feet of the target so I have a hard time believing stories of how perfect shots were put on an animal and never recovered. I have shot hundreds of animals in the vitals and have been recovered whether they dropped on the spot or went 60 to 80 yards. Their have been coyotes I thought I shot in the vitals and after chasing them over long distances found that the shot was too far back or too low. I will have to agree shot placement is the key and as long as its placed correctly 350 yards will harvest an Elk all day long with my muzzel loader. I am not telling people to go out and try this feat. I have launched a couple of hundred shock waves this year out of my muzzel loader and over a couple of thousand rounds out of some of my rifles. Practice makes perfect...and I plan on keep practicing in case I have to take a long shot for a once in a lifetime hunt.

[whyohe]

tcomegashooter, you and ozark are hard on trees ;D ;D.

[wilmsmeyer]

Butcher,

Your words are wise and true. And that goat has a huge sack of nuts. How did you know that a goat was the perfect ending to this post? Jeepers.

[tcomegashooter]

If I had half the sack that goat sports I'd be the king of "T" bagging! If I had a sack like that I would being trying 1000 yard shots!!!!

[AJ]

Now where did I put that flag? Oh yeah, here it is.

[butcher45]

Jul 26, 2008 8:19:43 GMT -5 AJ said:

Now where did I put that flag? Oh yeah, here it is.

If you are referring to my info on the ram I shot, there were several people on that hunt with me, and it was an airgun hunt so we all had airguns (not a firearm in camp). The guy that tuned my air rifle visits the Savage board sometimes.

You can call the meat processor yourself and ask him about the ram killed with an airgun last Oct (he still keeps on calling them BB guns) if you like. Ask for Alvin.

P@P Custom Deer Processing 580-927-5154

Or call up The Shiloh Ranch and ask them about the airguns. Just do it quickly as they are very busy folks. After killing my ram the ranch owner bought a .45 bigbore air rifle for himself. Look what he did with it! (his airgun is a good bit more powerful than mine, though).

www.network54.com/Forum/414006/message/1195938902/Big+Bore+for+Big+Boar%21

Here's another one for you AJ, from May of this year (another all-airgun hunt). Read up on the hunt at www.hardcorebigbore.com

228grainer going 700fps@ about 15-20 yards.




If you still have doubts that a 255grain slug@650fps will fully penetrate a deer, ask Mr. Linebaugh. Check out the results .45Colt 265grain Keith going only 675fps. Obviously high velocity is not necessarily required for penetration on thin-skinned game.

www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Or you can see my demonstration of a couple of slugs in the 200 grain range going around 740fps. The first is a 200grain SWC, the second is a 207grain Devastator Hollowpoint. Both cast in very close to pure lead.




That should do it.