|
|
Post by iowahunter on Aug 25, 2008 13:37:13 GMT -5
Have old TC Black Diamond. Tired of cleaning constantly....Buddy told me He has has a Savage and has never used Black Powder!!! Anyone know if using regular rifle powder in my ol TC BLACK DIAMOND WILL KILL ME??? LOADS???
|
|
|
|
Post by SURVEYOR on Aug 25, 2008 15:26:34 GMT -5
DON'T USE SMOKELESS IN A BLACK POWDER FIREARM!!!!! iT'LL BLOW AND TAKE YOUR EYE OUT OR YOUR HEAD OFF! SMOKELESS IS FOR SAVAGE MUZZLELOADERS DESIGNED FOR SMOKELESS!!! DON'T BE A FOOL!!
|
|
|
|
Post by KeithLewis on Aug 25, 2008 18:35:19 GMT -5
Probably the worst thing Savage did was to design a muzzleloader that would be safe to shoot with smokeless powder as it is confusing to the few who do not take the sport seriously enough to really understand what is required for most muzzleloaders. Smokeless powder will likely cause serious damage resulting in severe injury or death if used in rifles not designed for smokeless powder. I know of a few that actually use smokeless in other muzzleloaders but the experiment is very very dangerous and not to be considered. Even the Savage rifle is very specific as to what smokeless powders can be used and then only with extreme caution.
|
|
|
|
Post by Semisane on Aug 25, 2008 20:22:01 GMT -5
Don't even THINK about it. That's what's called a "Pipe Bomb".
|
|
AJ
Eight Pointer
Posts: 123
|
Post by AJ on Aug 25, 2008 22:08:30 GMT -5
Well, if everyone thought the same way Keith thinks, we would still be in the stone age. If the Savage weeds out a few of the "less than average intelelct" its weeding out the gene pool. Do I think you can use smokeless safely in non Savage guns? Sure, but if you have to ask what loads to use, you should not be doing it. If you understand internal ballistics and some gun designs, its not too difficult to figure out what will and what will not work. Pressure is pressure no matter if it comes from black, a so-called BP substitute, or smokeless. I will not recommend any loads or what guns should or should not be used with smokeless though.
The closese thing for you to use is Blackhorn 209. It acts just like smokeless in most ML guns but is rated safe to use in them.
|
|
|
|
Post by SURVEYOR on Aug 25, 2008 22:52:35 GMT -5
Well, if everyone thought the same way Keith thinks, we would still be in the stone age. If the Savage weeds out a few of the "less than average intelelct" its weeding out the gene pool. Do I think you can use smokeless safely in non Savage guns? Sure, but if you have to ask what loads to use, you should not be doing it. If you understand internal ballistics and some gun designs, its not too difficult to figure out what will and what will not work. Pressure is pressure no matter if it comes from black, a so-called BP substitute, or smokeless. I will not recommend any loads or what guns should or should not be used with smokeless though. The closese thing for you to use is Blackhorn 209. It acts just like smokeless in most ML guns but is rated safe to use in them. You're good AJ!  Hope you sleep good tonight!  If your firearm is not rated for smokeless, don't even try! You'll be shooting a pipe bomb, and not only you, but others around at the time will be in danger! Mods! You need to get AJ out of here! NOW! |
|
|
|
Post by whyohe on Aug 25, 2008 23:30:19 GMT -5
iowahunter, your TC Black Diamond is NOT designed for smokless powder so dont do it no mater what you read on any board. i see that others have done it but the pressure over time what does it do to the barrel life breach plug threads. consider all that can and is being effected by the pressure and it curve. if you want to shoot smokeless buy a savage and read the book and start with book loads. keep the TC Black Diamond for the places you cant shoot smokeless.
|
|
|
|
Post by KeithLewis on Aug 26, 2008 20:18:29 GMT -5
Hey AJ if you really want to experiment you ought to try some duplex smokeless loads and then we probably would not have to worry about any more statements about "pressure is pressure".
Seriously; anyone reading this thread please just follow the instructions with your specific rifle not any recommendations from anyone else unless you really trust them with your life. (because that is what you would be doing).
|
|
AJ
Eight Pointer
Posts: 123
|
Post by AJ on Aug 26, 2008 22:21:29 GMT -5
Hey AJ if you really want to experiment you ought to try some duplex smokeless loads and then we probably would not have to worry about any more statements about "pressure is pressure". I do use duplex loads. I have shot pounds of powder using duplex loads. They have been around a lot longer than you have as flintlock guns have used them for centuries, with 4f in the pan and 2f in the bore. Oh yeah, if you use Pyrodex pellets, you are using them also. The darker tip on one end is black powder which helps it ignite easier. Clint Eastrood said it best in Magnum Force "A man's got to know his limitations." We can see that you do Keith. Good for you. |
|
|
|
Post by KeithLewis on Aug 27, 2008 9:33:14 GMT -5
You are right that I "know my limitations" it took some time to get to the point where I did but after several very scary experiments I finally decided that it was not worth the excitement of being on the "cutting edge of experiments". I reload also and have played with combinations that would probably make your head spin, but it is NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!
Many more knowledgeable people than me have written the books about how to shoot the rifles that they make and seriously they do know what they are talking about. I am stopping this debate at this point to not clutter up the thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Sept 6, 2008 20:18:45 GMT -5
This thread was contaminated with danger and carelessness from the getgo. The danger is far to great to seriously discuss it. Ben
|
|
|
|
Post by DannoBoone on Sept 11, 2008 16:49:41 GMT -5
Best BP sub duplex ever............... 5-7gr T7 under 80-90gr Goex Clear Shot. Unfortunately, Clear Shot is no longer made.  Careful about locking horns with AJ about rifle knowledge......he knows more than most of us. Iowahunter, you are giving us Iowans a bad rep with a thread like this. Stick to the Savage forum! ;D |
|
|
|
Post by KeithLewis on Sept 11, 2008 18:30:47 GMT -5
AJ says he uses duplex loads. If you read the post I mentioned duplex smokeless loads. If he is in fact using smokeless duplex loads I sure want to stay way back when they are lit. I understand duplex with subs and black powder but smokeless is an altogether different animal. I have seen some but sure don't recommend it. Have been reloading since 1954 so I also know a little about it. Sorry, I said I was out of this but failed to follow my own directions. Not intending to "lock horns" but just trying to keep the new people informed that following the manufacturers guide is really the only safe way to do this sport. Duplexing loads and such is OK for those that really know what they are doing and have a lot of background to rely on. Not recommended for beginner muzzleloaders. The same goes for smokeless muzzleloading (even with a Savage caution is required).
|
|
AJ
Eight Pointer
Posts: 123
|
Post by AJ on Sept 13, 2008 0:04:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words DB.
Keith is just looking out for the average idiot that does not know any better. I can see his side. But yes, I do indeed use duplex smokeless loads in my Savage. The pressure traces are on par with the single powder loads, usually better. Yes, some knowledge and understanding is required to safely do this. Using smokeless powder in the Savage is no more dangerous than handloading or shooting any other muzzleloader.
|
|
|
|
Post by KeithLewis on Sept 13, 2008 9:50:59 GMT -5
That was exactly what I was trying to get across. With a lot of background and pressure testing with real equipment I also have used smokeless duplex loads in my 40-65 but again this is not to say that it is either a good idea or anything I recommend for others. You have to make your own decisions and hopefully based on very good information.
|
|
|
|
Post by Semisane on Sept 16, 2008 20:06:02 GMT -5
Keep it simple guys. The question Iowahunter asked was "Anyone know if using regular rifle powder in my ol TC BLACK DIAMOND WILL KILL ME???" (Emphasis added.)
The simple and correct answer is IT WELL MIGHT.
|
|
|
|
Post by art338wm on Nov 12, 2008 17:47:12 GMT -5
Here we go again. It seems without fail the question of using smokeless powder in muzzleloaders other than the 10ML-I or 10ML-II comes up at least onece a year at various websites like this one.
I have read dozens of posts debating this subject and one argument always is used in favor of using smokeless powder modern inlines other than the 10ML-I or 10ML-II. The argument of pressure is after all pressure and the pressure generated by so called magnum charges of Pyrodex, 777, or the newest BP sub BH209 is no more than a spacific charge of smokeless powder.
Good argument. Now back it up with explaining in compleat detail how a shooter will be able to determine the exact benchmark of "safe pressure" of using smokeless powder in a inline other than a 10ML-I or 10ML-II unless you have invested some seriously big $$$$ in a pressure measuring system and related softwhere like the type sold by Oehler? I have been going to public and private shooting ranges for over 25 years know and only seen a handfull of chronos ever and never a one doing pressure work. Whick leads me to think vary, vary, very few shooters own them.
I simply think it is courting disaster to shoot smokeless powder out of anything other than a ML that has been spacificlly designed to do so. For the sake of the obvious eithor buy a aftermarket barrell or a 10ML-II, but stick to BP subs in you knighhts, T/Cs, and so on.
Or more bluntly put, a accidental double charge of smokeless in my 10ML-II (something that happens not all that often, but happens none the less) will only result in a bad group or missed animal, and most likely a sore shoulder. Would not like to think what the result would be in a Encore, Knight, or T/C.
|
|
|
|
Post by bluegunner on Dec 4, 2008 22:54:05 GMT -5
Just registered for this site, and wanted to respond to the above question (Regular powder instead of Black powder).
I just bought my first BP rifle, a Lyman Mustang Breakaway and the main reason I got it was TO SHOOT BLACK POWDER. I shoot regular powder but I load and shoot it in my Savage 22-250 and my Reminton 700BDL 30-06. Wanting to shoot BP in one of these makes about as much sense (to me) as shooting regular powder in a gun that was designed for BP. Why buy a BP gun to shot regular powder?
Well that's my two cents for what it worth! Have generally found that in life that my opinion and a buck might get me a cup of coffee.
|
|
