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Post by Harley on Jan 4, 2009 11:48:28 GMT -5
I have NO opinion on the "correct" interpretation of the issue, only my own experience. My .45 Pac-Nor consistently groups close to 1/2 inch at 100 yards. The action is bedded, including the tang. The barrel floats to the recoil lug which is the Savage OEM. I have no third post. I pay careful attention to tightening the two action screws - first the forward, then the rear - to a certified 25 in. lbs.
Harley
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Post by DannoBoone on Jan 4, 2009 13:22:09 GMT -5
So, is it the factory recoil lug that's making my 10MLII naturally shoot WAAY low? It was that way with the .50 barrel as well as now with the .45. Even going to the end of the 4200 with 1/8" clicks didn't bring up POI enough without going to Burris Signature rings and using the most extreme offset (20 degrees) they have.
Didn't really want to redo the bedding job (guess it could be done just in the lug area), so I left it "as is" when replacing the barrel.
If this the case, then perhaps I should get 2 lugs, one for the 10MLII and one for the 112 VLD in .25-06 which "Santa" brought. Then, I'll also need to get the "Go No-Go" gauges, just for a one time fitting. Since there has possibly been a "wearing in" of the lug nut, should it, too, be replaced?
Having said that.......richard, I can see your points, also. If, however, mine is a lug problem, perhaps I should be addressing it. When zeroed in, the scope on this rifle is in an obvious off-set position....it can be easily seen.....probably not too good for a scope even if it is held by Burris inserts.
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Post by DHinMN on Jan 4, 2009 14:16:03 GMT -5
Danno, I'm not getting into the bedding debate, but I read something years ago about actions not having the barrel threads cut in 100 percent straight. This article was concerning Mauser actions. I think I even experienced it with a commercial mauser action that I had to find a scope base that had windage adjustment. If the barrel is off a small fraction that could account for it. I'm not sure how you would check for that. Maybe a long straight edge accross the action and compare the center of the bore at each end of the barrel or some more hi tech device. It might fall under a warrenty issue if the threads are not cut in straight. I'm far from an expert. Any body else hear of this. DH
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Post by SW on Jan 4, 2009 15:29:34 GMT -5
I have a removed std Sav 10-ML-2 recoil lug here. Here are it's thicknesses: top - 0.0186", rt side - 0.0187", l side - 0.01855", bottom - 0.0189+"(this is measured where the barrel was over the bottom part. The 1st 2 measurements were almost exactly on the line of "6" and "7". The last measurement was appx 0.0002" , ie 0.01892". All my SSS recoil lugs are on the rifles: and I don't want to remove, just to measure. I'll likely switch 2 barrels/receivers soon; and if I do, I'll measure and report.
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Post by ozark on Jan 4, 2009 16:09:03 GMT -5
This is just my opinion and how I see the problem of the recoil lug being less than a perfect thickness where the barre and receiverl touches it. If one side, top or bottom is not equal thickness to the rest that comes in contact with the receiver and barrel then it throws the barrel and receiver threads in a bind. Obviously it would cause the barrel to be less than straight with the receiver. I think it would alter the alignment of receiver and bore enough to cause a need to compensate with scope adjustment. It would probably be accurate enough unless the offset resulted in changing the position with use. If given a choice, I would pay some extra to get a perfectly milled recoil lug that had equal thickness all around. That said, If I had a rifle using the stamped recoil lug that shot satisfactorily I would not change the recoil lug as a preventive step. My first question would be where to purchase a quality recoil lug. I would then make the exchange if I ever changed or removed the barrel for any purpose. Ozark
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Post by KerryB on Jan 4, 2009 16:56:51 GMT -5
I'll bet he does these things to a centerfire action for sure as do Richard and myself. However i also don't see any real benefit with this sort of barreled receiver (Savage 10MLII). JMHO as a benchrest shooter..........i'm not a gunsmith! The goat has been tied up.........please don't release it on my account! ;D KerryB since you addressed this to me I will reply directly to you. If the recoil lug is out of square or bent, then are only two options for the barrel: 1) the barrel is crooked relative to the bore; 2) the barrel is in perfect alignment but the is a gap between the action and barrel. Now, richard gave an example of a lug 0.200 on one side and 0.202 on the other and since he is an expert I won't quibble. If you have a barrel that is crooked because the lug is not square by 0.002, how far off is the end of the barrel, and how far off do you need to adjust your scope @100 yards to compensate? Answer #1 the barrel center of the muzzle will be 0.037 from the center of the action! Answer #2 you need to adjust your scope almost 6 inches in some direction! This does NOT take into account that the muzzle will recoil in a slightly different direction that the rest of the rifle! If these are insignificant than I am wrong. Will they make you group blow up, probably not. Will they make a difference...probably. Perhaps they may make a difference between a sub MOA and a MOA rifle, perhaps not. My only point is if you are going out and spending a few hundred dollars on a barrel, why not make it a bit better, and that is all I have ever said. edge. I don't suppose i know what you mean by "the barrel is crooked relative to the bore"? My only contention is that a slight variation in recoil lug thickness is far less critical (nil) with a muzzleloader than it is with a centerfire rifle. I do believe that a slight mis-alignment of barrel and receiver causing scope related sight-in problems is more of a concern than any sort of recoil related accuracy problems. I fully believe that you could remove the recoil lug completely and if the receiver is immovably bedded or glued into the stock, then accuracy will not suffer. I don't agree that a barrel being slightly out of alignment with the receiver is going to cause some "other worldly" sort of recoil motion when the gun fires (my words, not yours). Take a look at the infinite variety of stock configurations and you could assume that each one would have some bizarre accuracy destroying effect since the recoil would be transfered to your shoulder in a different way with each, but that doesn't occur either. None of this even takes into account the fact that a good deal of torque or twisting motion is applied to the firearm at the instant of firing and the fact that the bullet weight and velocity change the amount of this torqueing motion. But these changing torque factors sure don't completely destroy accuracy either............any more than a very slight misalignment of the recoil lug does. All i am saying is, if the receiver is properly bedded with a Savage 10MLII, i don't think the thickness of the recoil lug means squat! A centerfire is a different animal since the barrel, receiver, cartridge, and bolt all play a part in accuracy and each cartridge needs to be installed in perfect alignment every time. That is exactly why we "blueprint" our benchrest and target rifles. We will probably need to "agree to disagree" about some of these issues. There is one thing that i 100% agree with you about......."My only point is if you are going out and spending a few hundred dollars on a barrel, why not make it a bit better, and that is all I have ever said." I would never fault anyone for trying to improve accuracy or their firearm, whether there is a tangible improvement or not, because if you think it will help then it probably will since so much of this shooting game is "in your head". Even fancy paint jobs on some benchrest rifles make the gun shoot better! ;D Either that or it psych's out the other shooters who figure if you spent hundreds on a paint job, then it must be a shooter! Anyway, this has been one of the more enjoyeable recent theads for me that has nurtured much contemplation. Good to hear everyones thoughts on these issues and i certainly respect everyone with a different opinion than mine! Just because it is my opinion doesn't mean i absolutely know i am right!
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Post by Harley on Jan 4, 2009 17:44:43 GMT -5
I've changed my mind; I do have an opinion: I think Edge is correct in an absolute mathematical frame of reference, but that Richard and now, KerryB are correct in a functional frame of reference; i.e., it would be preferable to have no mis-alignment, but at least with the ML it's not likely that a less than perfectly squared setup will materially affect your shooting, unless it's so badly skewed that it's an exception to the norm.
If I had not already bedded my rifle before switching to the .45, I'd have replaced the recoil lug as a "why not" sort of option, which is what Edge is saying.
Harley
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Post by richard on Jan 4, 2009 17:57:26 GMT -5
Edge! You again have it wrong. I indicated that if the lug was .200" thick on one side and .202 on the other, that extra thickness would be manifested on the side facing the muzzle which is not bedded. The face which is sandwiched against the action shoulder, is in fact, square to the bore. The barrel nut is forcing it up thight against the shoulder (remember, the little play in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the lug. And you also tried to twist the senario with the gunsmith. I indicated that we were talking about the Savage ML, NOT center fire rifles. I in fact have all my recoil lugs surface ground parallel or use after market lugs. It is a different story when action face, recoil lug and barrel shoulder all have to be in alignment. Actually, the rifle I built that set and held the 1,000 yd. record for five years, does NOT have a recoil lug and is not a "glued in" action. The rear tang is butted up against a 1/2" thick piece of aluminum that I recessed in the the stock. And, I have no idea if the rear face of that tang is square to the action. Doesn't matter! It is bedded solid. And, I had also indicated that if a savage barrel was not perfectly in alignment with the action due to threads being cut crooked, the barrel itself would still shot straight, but would cause point of impact differences at varying yardage. Richard
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petev
Eight Pointer
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 18:13:34 GMT -5
I also find this thread great, although despite everyone getting along for the most part, and many opinions shared, I doubt we will be writing a report with a unanimous decision at the end of it. As an engineer, I cannot keep out of it completely, despite not having the gunsmithing experience of others here. One point that has been completely overlooked by everyone is that we keep talking about the thickness of the lug, right left etc., but the only important factor here is the relative perpendicular aspect of the rear face of the lug to the bore. If you have a rear face that is completely perpendicular to the bore, but the front left of the bore is 1/10000" further ahead, or forward, of the right side it shouldn't affect anything. Just the lug nut would seat a little sooner on one side than the other. In SW's report it is shown that that lug varied 1 1/2 ten-thousands of an inch from left to right. It doesn't seem like much. Well, I look forward to hearing more ideas. All I know is that I shot my third grouse over the pup a couple of hours ago, so I'm feeling Okay. Pete
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petev
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 18:24:51 GMT -5
Edge! You again have it wrong. I indicated that if the lug was .200" thick on one side and .202 on the other, that extra thickness would be manifested on the side facing the muzzle which is not bedded. The face which is sandwiched against the action shoulder, is in fact, square to the bore. The barrel nut is forcing it up thight against the shoulder (remember, the little play in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the lug. Richard This is good. I too believe that the lug nut would conform to the lug, obviously the lug wouldn't warp to the nut pressure, or in fact maybe there would be a hairline gap between the lug nut and lug on the thinner side of the lug. Anyway the perpindicular orientation of the lug would be maintained to the bore.
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Post by richard on Jan 4, 2009 18:45:54 GMT -5
Thank you petev for you engineering insight. I'm glad I was able to convey my thoughts to some. Richard
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petev
Eight Pointer
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 19:19:59 GMT -5
Okay, no problem. Well I went into bullhead mode and did some calculations. Going back to the hypothetical situation of a difference of .002" of a lug, and making the ASSUMPTION that half of that difference is in front of and half of in the backside of the lug, then I come up with a necessary scope adjustment at 100 yards of 5.35 inches (close to Edge's 6"). If we go with SW's lug which had a difference of 0.00015" left to right (it's kind of a small sample, but we'll go with what we've got), then making the same ASSUMPTION as previously, then the adjustment would be 0.40" at 100 yards. Even if all of the difference in thickness was all in the backside of the lug, the adjustment would only be 0.80". So, with the original hypothetical difference of .002" the adjustment would be problematic, but with SW's lug it wouldn't. The acid test would be to test some rifles with lugs that measure way out of wack, and compare them to some that were perfectly true. That would end all discussions I suppose!
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Post by richard on Jan 4, 2009 19:40:56 GMT -5
In reality though, the rear face of the lug (the part that faces the tang) is fitting square to the face of the action........Provided the action face is cut square by the factory . That measly .002" will easily be conformed to by the looseness of the barrel nut. So, we are talking about nothing being out of square. The "unsquareness" faces the muzzle which has no bedding touching it due to a layer or two of masking tape. It could have ripples in it for that matter and it would not effect anything so long as the opposite face is flat and square to the action. Hey, who knows how square to the centerline of the action Savage cuts the internal threads ?. Who knows how square to the centerline of the bore the barrel threads are cut? In the benchrest game, if you are going to use a factory , say Remington, receiver, you want to have it blueprinted. The action set up and indicate in a lathe, then the threads single point trued. Barrels have to be indicated with gauge pins so the bore is running true. Then the threads cut and the chamber reamed without removing the barrel from the lathe. Factory tolerances are no where near what a benchrest gunsmith holds. Thanks SW for measuring that "bent" recoil lug. Richard
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 19:44:33 GMT -5
Edge! You again have it wrong. SNIP Of course I am, you could never be wrong. SNIP The barrel nut is forcing it up thight against the shoulder (remember, the little play in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the lug. SNIP The barrel nut IS ON THE BARREL! If the barrel nut is crooked to the centerline of the action, then it IS ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT ANY DOUBT EXERTING PRESSURE ON THE BARREL TO CONFORM ALSO ( they are connected you know)! SNIP And you also tried to twist the senario with the gunsmith. SNIP Only someone with an agenda would get that impression! SNIP I in fact have all my recoil lugs surface ground parallel or use after market lugs. It is a different story when action face, recoil lug and barrel shoulder all have to be in alignment. SNIP It is simply amazing that on your "good" rifles you do as I suggest IMO, if you glue in the barrel that it would not matter since the recoil would be perpendicular to the bore centerline. Most gunsmiths that I know take great pains to ensure that the bore is aligned perfectly with the action! And you basically say "who cares it's a muzzleloader" when you write this: SNIP And, I had also indicated that if a savage barrel was not perfectly in alignment with the action due to threads being cut crooked, the barrel itself would still shot straight, but would cause point of impact differences at varying yardage. Richard "but would cause point of impact differences at varying yardage." Everyone that likes this and wants this trait in your muzzleloader raise your hands now Come on ...someone other than richard please raise your hand...anyone? Sorry, richard I think you are alone on this accuracy tip. edge.
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 19:48:58 GMT -5
SNIP The acid test would be to test some rifles with lugs that measure way out of wack, and compare them to some that were perfectly true. That would end all discussions I suppose! I appreciate you doing the math, but in reality all I am saying is since you are spending hundreds on a good barrel why not get a thicker machined lug? It is one less problem to worry about edge.
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petev
Eight Pointer
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 19:56:48 GMT -5
I appreciate you doing the math, but in reality all I am saying is since you are spending hundreds on a good barrel why not get a thicker machined lug? It is one less problem to worry about edge. If that's what you're saying Edge, who could argue, yes if you are springing for a new barrel, why not put on a thicker machined lug. Don't mix good with not so good, got it!
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 20:02:27 GMT -5
petev, only one person that I know of! Here is what I originally wrote: Thanks RB, I agree 1000% While it it true that the real action with the Savage is the barrel and breechplug, the direction of recoil should be square to the stock. IMO, a Savage barrel that is not 100% in-line with your stock will be like a car with a bad alignment on the front end. Sure you "can" stay on the road, but you have to fight it all of the way. If you glue in the barrel and float the action then I might agree that the recoil lug makes little difference, but I would still like to have it sitting square. If I am wrong then you have spent very few dollars with piece of mind....or don't...but it's crooked ;D edge. edge.
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Post by KerryB on Jan 4, 2009 20:06:59 GMT -5
Wow! What a smorgasbord this has turned out to be for the goat! My rear has been chewed completely off! ;D ;D
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petev
Eight Pointer
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 20:28:23 GMT -5
I see what you're saying Edge, but the discussion progressed into a little more than "if you but a new expensive barrel than you might as well get a machined lug". There has been discussion as to whether bedding takes up alot of the imperfection in the stock lug,etc. "petev only one person I know of!" Not sure what that means. Maybe it looks like I took Richard's side, but like I say, if you're talking .002" difference it's one thing, and .00015" it's another. Question, how would someone test for squareness of the action to barrel- maybe have a boresite in the barrel, and somehow a scope that is at zero adjustment, and see how the two compare at 100 yards, left and right anyway, and assuming the ring mounts are pointed true?
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 20:29:22 GMT -5
I don't suppose i know what you mean by "the barrel is crooked relative to the bore"? My only contention is that a slight variation in recoil lug thickness is far less critical (nil) with a muzzleloader than it is with a centerfire rifle. I do believe that a slight mis-alignment of barrel and receiver causing scope related sight-in problems is more of a concern than any sort of recoil related accuracy problems. SNIP The scope is NOT the issue! If the barrel is not in alignment with the action, then the muzzle is also NOT square to the recoil lug! Let me exaggerate it to the extreme Since you are a fisherman, I assume that you have a boat trailer. Drive straight forward in a parking lot. Now stop, and put the car in reverse and hold the steering wheel straight. If you don't compensate, sooner or later you will jack knife the trailer even though you are pushing straight back. WHY? Because very tiny forces make the trailer move in a very slightly different line than the car. If the crown is not perpendicular to the bore and the bore is not perpendicular to the recoil lug then there are tiny forces working against you. Remember the recoil lug can't move so the muzzle will whip slightly more than if it were perpendicular because all forces would be directly back toward the lug and not to the side. edge.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 4, 2009 20:41:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the debate guys, its been interesting, over my head somewhat but interesting all the same, think before the pacnor arrives there will be a new recoil lug waiting but in the meantime the experts can hash it out and mr goat will be well fed, going to bed ,my head hurts.
Bill
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 20:59:28 GMT -5
DannoBoone, probably not but I don't know for sure. There are many variables including bases and rings.
Personally, I would want the bore in line with the action so I would want to find out if the problem is action to scope OR is the barrel facing a different direction than the action!
edge.
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Post by ozark on Jan 4, 2009 21:36:02 GMT -5
I too have enjoyed the debate. Sometimes I get to wondering about these things and wonder if sometimes we are not gagging at a knat and swallowing a camel. Ideally all parts would be perfectly alligned and surfaces matched. But since parts are made and accepted with tolerances this will not happen on a mass produced rifle. It is rare to find a barrel that is absolutely straight and with the bore running precisely through the center of the barrel., one imperfection may sometimes offset another. I have never removed a Savage barrel but I do have a question I believe is reasonable. Does the torque of the bullet moving down the barrel twist tend to tighten or loosen the barrel from the receiver? I hope it tends to tighten the threads. Ozark
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Post by KerryB on Jan 4, 2009 21:55:35 GMT -5
Ben, I really don't know the answer to your question, however, i have never heard of a barrel loosening up from shooting, so it probably doesn't matter which direction it torques.................
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Post by edge on Jan 4, 2009 21:58:57 GMT -5
ozark, it will turn in the direction to tighten the barrel.
edge.
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Post by SW on Jan 4, 2009 22:25:26 GMT -5
Edge! You again have it wrong. I indicated that if the lug was .200" thick on one side and .202 on the other, that extra thickness would be manifested on the side facing the muzzle which is not bedded. The face which is sandwiched against the action shoulder, is in fact, square to the bore. The barrel nut is forcing it up thight against the shoulder (remember, the little play in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the lug. Richard This is good. I too believe that the lug nut would conform to the lug, obviously the lug wouldn't warp to the nut pressure, or in fact maybe there would be a hairline gap between the lug nut and lug on the thinner side of the lug. Anyway the perpindicular orientation of the lug would be maintained to the bore. Petev, Ironic that you would post this. Harley and I have been having a PM discussion concerning something else, but I just sent him a comment that is virtually word for word what you just posted. The only difference was the "would be maintained" part was "would probably be maintained". I just think there would be more pressure on one side, and the hairline gap or less pressure on one side. I don't think the torquing would be the full amt unless the pressure on each side of the unequal lug were the same. I used subjunctive mood here as I don't think it would be true. I can't imagine the threads giving that much, if any. Still, I feel that I am so much of a neophyte compared to both Edge and Richard concerning such things, that my opinion doesn't hold much water. Airplanes/flying: I'll discuss a little more vigorously.
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petev
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Post by petev on Jan 4, 2009 22:49:54 GMT -5
SW, thanks, point noted. If the lug was uneven, the torque of the nut would not produce an equal pressure all around, but if the materials (lug, barrel, action steel) were strong enough they might not "care" about the unequal pressure, with no warping or bending of material, resulting in continued perpindicularity of the lug to the bore and action. Of course recoil might jar things. Somewhere out there someone has the experience and answers to these questions. Airplanes flying, bullets flying, I guess you just go with your gut as to when to post or not, and what to say. I just hope I never get shot down in flames, AND have to agree that it's so! It's been fun for me, it exercises the mind and imagination. I hope that the rest think so too. Pete
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Post by youp50 on Jan 5, 2009 9:44:08 GMT -5
Here is what happens for me. I have two center fire Savage made rifles. One is an Accutrigger 7mm WSM the other a Stevens 308. The 7mm will one hole 140 grain factory Ballistic Tips at 100 yards all day. The Stevens has only 9 shots through it and has one holed at 50 during a break in/ sight in outing. A 20 mph cross wind picked up and the best I could do at 100 was 2 inches with a horizontal stringing. This is expected in a gusting cross wind. Neither rifles were bedded, nor blueprinted. Both rifles have things going on behind the recoil lug. Both wear a tupperware stock, except one needs to handle a Stevens to believe such a stock can be made. I would guess that the barrel on the 10 ML is as heavy as the whole Stevens rifle.
Fast forward to 10 ML, all the stress is in front of the recoil lug. The lug typically needs to be bedded for good accuracy. Why?
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petev
Eight Pointer
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Post by petev on Jan 5, 2009 11:22:01 GMT -5
The way I see it is that the shot makes the barrel want to move backward. Your shoulder, and the stock that is on it are there to stop that rearward motion. The barrel is freefloated up to the rear lug. The transfer of force from the barrel to the stock will occur at the lug, the action screws, the bedding or pillars and maybe the tang. It's better to take the force at the lug, so if it is bedded, it is more rigid between the stock and the lug. The force exerted by the barrel is resisted by the stock/bedding behind the lug, and that is what sets up shear stress at the lug. There is stress along the whole length of the barrel, but at the rear lug it is concentrated. That's my interpretation anyway. Pete
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 5, 2009 14:04:29 GMT -5
There are many things I don't completely understand. Through the years a fellow learns many things via cause and effect. A very wise man said " When a man picks up a cat with a pair of vice grips, he learns something he can learn in no other way". Same with bedding the lug. Over the years I've bedded and free floated just about everything I've got. Some shot a whole lot better.Some ,little difference. It never made anything shoot worse. I never felt compelled to understand why, just like I don't care what makes concrete get hard. Concrete gets hard and cracks. That's all I need to know. If I change out my barrel,I'll buy a machined recoil lug. Why? What could it hurt.Then I'll bed it. It seems to help. Thats all I need to know. The goat is resting. mshm
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