Recoil lug!

[rexxer]

Whats the deal with some of the guys going with a oversized recoil lug. I also read somewhere about maching both sides. Would someone please explain this to me?Is there a benefit with the savage? Thanks Rex

[rossman40]

One of the problems in the past (even before the 10ML) has been that the factory recoil lug is a stamped part. Some were not very square/flat and as a result caused the action to squirm in the stock during firing. Bedding the lug usually cures any problem. The best advice I can give is if your going to remove the barrel from the action or replace the barrel, replacing the lug with a thicker milled aftermarket lug is money well spent.

[rexxer]

Dec 26, 2008 23:12:10 GMT -5 rossman40 said:

One of the problems in the past (even before the 10ML) has been that the factory recoil lug is a stamped part. Some were not very square/flat and as a result caused the action to squirm in the stock during firing. Bedding the lug usually cures any problem. The best advice I can give is if your going to remove the barrel from the action or replace the barrel, replacing the lug with a thicker milled aftermarket lug is money well spent.

Is there any other mods. to replace it?

[missedagain]

Hey Rex,
Have you Tried doing a search on action bedding? Arguably,the primary reason for bedding an action is to insure that recoil is distrubuted evenly & concistently against the recoil lug, if it's sitting solid and pretty, 90degrees to the barrel's direction, all the better .

[missedagain]

Sorry , Rex ,reread my last post and don't like the way I came across.
What I should of said was that there is an option to going with the machined recoil lug. Remove around .125" behind the lug and bed the lug with a 2 part epoxy- Devcon110 is what the pros use. Havn't given it a try myself since I tried Midways Milles Gilbert bedding last try. Will go with with Devcon next time around 'cause if you don't try how will you know?

[rexxer]

Thanks Missedagain!!!

[rossman40]

Like I said if you bed the action and lug you take care of the problem if the factory lug is not 100%.

[richard]

Rex.........Again, this is MY opinion. On a Savage, whether its a centerfire or a ML, having a recoil lug that is ground parallel on both sides doesn't mean a darn thing. In rifles, such as Remingtons and others that use a recoil lug (BUT NOT a NUT such as Savage), having the lug ground parallel is imperative for the following reason.........The face of the action must be ground square to the centerline of bore/action. The barrel is fitted with a SHOULDER which is machined square to the bore. If you stick anything in between those two surfaces that is not parallel, it will "cock: the barrel.........which will now be out of square with the bolt face. This causes the cartridge form a "slanted" case head when fired. If you reload, and don't "index" that crooked case, it will throw the bullet in a different alignment with the bore.
It gets a bit complicated but what you need is a square action face, parallel lug and square shoulder on the barrel.
Now, look at your Savage..........NO shoulder on the barrel. Your barrel screws into the action and a "semi" loose nut clamps the lug to the action. There is no barrel alignment except the barrel threading into the action. That stock Savage recoil lug is true enough, that if it is properly bedded along with the action, it will not shoot any better than one with a high dollar lug. Remember, particularly with a ML, the bolt does not have to be 100% square with the barrel as on a center fire. It only serves to ignite the primer. EVERYTHING concerning accuracy is contained within the barrel ahead of the breech plug. Provided the barrel is straight, it could be screwed on the action crooked and still shoot good. I would cause havoc with setting up your scope for various distances, but a one set yardage, it would shoot straight.
Spend your money getting the action and factory lug properly bedded. Thats all you need. You got my number if you want a more detailed description Rex.
Richard

[Harley]

This is the same advice Richard gave me when I first got my .45 and was worried that I should replace the recoil lug. I took his advice, kept the factory lug and have had no reason to second guess that decision.

Harley

[KerryB]

Richard tells it like it is............nuff said............

[RBinAR]

8-)I have three main requirements for an accurate rifle.

1. It has to be made of quality components capable of doing the task assigned.

2. They have to be assembled square and true.

3. The moving parts must repeat within a given time frame.

Almost anyone can spend enough money to assure the first part of the equation. The other two are harder to achieve.

The recoil lug and receiver fit make up a great deal of the second requirement. The need for recoil to be transfered to the stock without (or very little) twist or bind is perhaps the most important part of the process.

A good flat recoil lug bedded correctly to the stock can prevent a number of ills. Combine this with a square reciever and free receiver faseners and it's hard to have a rifle that won't shoot.

[edge]

Thanks RB, I agree 1000%

While it it true that the real action with the Savage is the barrel and breechplug, the direction of recoil should be square to the stock.

IMO, a Savage barrel that is not 100% in-line with your stock will be like a car with a bad alignment on the front end. Sure you "can" stay on the road, but you have to fight it all of the way.

If you glue in the barrel and float the action then I might agree that the recoil lug makes little difference, but I would still like to have it sitting square.

If I am wrong then you have spent very few dollars with piece of mind....or don't...but it's crooked ;D

edge.

[richard]

OK, so here is where we butt heads again............opinion!!!
Lets just say that the face of the recoil lug (the part which faces the butt of the rifle) is flat......AND, the face of the receiver is square to the bore..............We know there is some play in the threads and the barrel nut. So, if the recoil lug varies in thickness---not flatness. Lets just say it mic's .200 on the right side and .202" on the left side (and that would probably be an exaggeration). The face of the lug fits up flush and square to the receiver, right? Now, the barrel nut is tightened up against it. The looseness in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the .002" (out of parallel) and still lock the "flat/square" surface to the receiver. I could care less about the back of the lug Period! In fact, I put tape on it so it is not bedded. The only surface I bed is the FACE. Not the sides, the bottom or the back.
So, my recoil lug surface IS square to the action. And, I rest my case.
Richard

[KerryB]

Richard,
Maybe i am misunderstanding, but the back (face towards the receiver) of the recoil lug is the only part that i want bedded. I always tape the front and sides. I want the backward thrust of the recoil lug solid against the bedding compound..............

[youp50]

Richard,

I am bedded and re-pillared on a stock plastic stock. I do not bed sides, bottom, or the part of the stock lug that is toward the muzzle. I have never removed the barrel. My ML shoots just fine for me with the stock recoil lug.

It would seem to me that given your specifications, the barrel to receiver thread clearance could also be a factor and may 'share' some of the run out of the lug, thereby 'cocking' the barrel in the receiver. The result being a square and flat receiver face that is no longer square to the barrel axis.

Just my thoughts.

[RBinAR]

Jan 2, 2009 22:18:11 GMT -5 richard said:

OK, so here is where we butt heads again............opinion!!!
Lets just say that the face of the recoil lug (the part which faces the butt of the rifle) is flat......AND, the face of the receiver is square to the bore..............We know there is some play in the threads and the barrel nut. So, if the recoil lug varies in thickness---not flatness. Lets just say it mic's .200 on the right side and .202" on the left side (and that would probably be an exaggeration). The face of the lug fits up flush and square to the receiver, right? Now, the barrel nut is tightened up against it. The looseness in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the .002" (out of parallel) and still lock the "flat/square" surface to the receiver. I could care less about the back of the lug Period! In fact, I put tape on it so it is not bedded. The only surface I bed is the FACE. Not the sides, the bottom or the back.
So, my recoil lug surface IS square to the action. And, I rest my case.
Richard

It's true the lug can't vary in thickness. But aren't you forgetting the nut and receiver face must be flat as well? If the nut is not flat it can be resurfaced.

I don't know what you call the face and the back but I call the face the ramrod side of the lug. I've seen various methods of bedding where tape is used to make a pocket. I can't say how it compares but I bed the back, sides, and bottom of my rifles and they seem to work fairly well.

A customer sent me information where he uses his rifle in a 200 yard bench rest competition at his local range. According to what he says he generally wins the match even though he is limited by less efficient bullets and loading his rifle sabot-less from the muzzle. It's 20 shots at 200 yards a 10X scope or less maximum shooting time 30 minutes.

[edge]

Jan 2, 2009 22:18:11 GMT -5 richard said:

OK, so here is where we butt heads again............opinion!!!
Lets just say that the face of the recoil lug (the part which faces the butt of the rifle) is flat......AND, the face of the receiver is square to the bore..............We know there is some play in the threads and the barrel nut. So, if the recoil lug varies in thickness---not flatness. Lets just say it mic's .200 on the right side and .202" on the left side (and that would probably be an exaggeration). The face of the lug fits up flush and square to the receiver, right? Now, the barrel nut is tightened up against it. The looseness in the threads will allow the nut to conform to the .002" (out of parallel) and still lock the "flat/square" surface to the receiver. I could care less about the back of the lug Period! In fact, I put tape on it so it is not bedded. The only surface I bed is the FACE. Not the sides, the bottom or the back.
So, my recoil lug surface IS square to the action. And, I rest my case.
Richard

The recoil lug is normally somewhat BENT!

There are FOUR items involved in this equation.
1) a threaded barrel ;
2) a barrel nut ;
3) a bent recoil lug;
4) a receiver .

YOU say that the BENT recoil lug will magically align perfectly with the receiver and the other items will be square to the receiver!

FIRST, IMO, you do not exert enough force on the barrel nut to straighten out a piece of 3/16 steel;

SECOND, IMO, the bottom of the lug ( hanging down and doing most of the work) won't be square with the barrel and with the stock!

YES Richard, I do know that you are bedding the recoil lug to the stock, but that does not negate the forces of recoil.
ANY angular misalignment of the recoil lug to the stock, no matter how well bedded, will exert a force in that direction.

Since the muzzle is two feet away from the recoil lug the muzzle end of the barrel will be pushed away from the bore centerline. The receiver will tend to push in the opposite direction as the muzzle, but it can't move "much" because it is bedded and screwed into the stock...but with sensitive enough equipment I am sure that it could be measured!
The pivot point is the BENT recoil lug.

I rest my case

edge.

[hillbill]

Ok guys here is my question, when I replace the barrel with a 500.00 pacnor would it be smart to go with a machined lug? after all the time and money spent on this thing I want a shooter when its all said and done.

all advice is welcome, thanks
BILL

[wilmsmeyer]

Richard,

In an attempt to be amusing....could it be that your set up is causing some of the groups you get?

I only say this because it is rare for me to get ANY bullets and powder combo's we normally talk about to shoot worse then 2-3 inches. I have a stock rifle/lug which is bedded as Rossman describes.

Could there be something to the differing opinions here that affects your over-all accuracy?

I am really not trying to be a wise guy here. You are probably one of the more accomplished marksman on this board and you seem to get the most mediocre groups.

Absolutely not trying to be disrespectful.

[petev]

My understanding of bedding the sides and bottom of the lug, even with a single width of electrical tape during setup(so you can get the barrel in and out of the stock OK) is so the lug can accept some of the torque that comes from the bullet spinning along the rifling. The rotational acceleration of the bullet causes a force that has to be balanced somewhere. One thing that might be worth mentioning in case people are viewing who are new to the bedding process, is how easy it is to bed the recoil lug (see tips and hints). Peter

[KerryB]

Wait till Richard gets his PacNor barrel.............then we are going to see what sort of marksman Richard is! Good i suspect! ;D

[ozark]

If the recoil lug is machined so that it can be bedded all around without causing a lock up that is my idea of best. The only reason for taping the sides and muzzle side is to permit ease of removal from stock. The receiver is round and even if sitting is epoxy bedding has little resistance to rotation. As the bullet speeds down the bore the lands and grooves causes some torque which will tend to rotate the round receiver in the stock. A fully bedded recoil lug will resist this torque. Now for the muzzle side of the recoil lug. When recoil raps against the rear of the recoil lug there is going to be some give followed by some rebound. This in a short time can create some slack or looseness.
I personally like for the whole action to be bedded in epoxy material even though removing the action from the stock has to be done straight away from each other. With these things said it is a proven fact that reasonable accuracy can be obtained with a variety of bedding systems. In fact, most Savage rifles shoot good without any modifications whatever. Ozark

[hillbill]

I tend to agree with Ozark on the bedding issue, I have always bedded the entire area and have not failed to get one out of the stock yet, but using Acraglass and atomized stainless I always remove and clean in 7 hrs/ no longer, they are always skin tight . after cleaning I replace, torque and finish curing.

Bill

[richard]

Well look, we are just dealing with opinions. I was just at a 600 yard "winter fun" match and had Herman and another friend along. (they are getting hooked on long range shooting) and a well noted benchrest gunsmith (Dave Tooley) from Gastonia, NC, that I shoot both 600 and 1,000 yard matches with on a regular basis, showed up. During the course of conversation, I brought up the contents of this thread and asked for his opinion? I am not going to go into details, but Herman can attest to the conversation......He agreed with me that as long as the entire action is bedded along with the part of of the lug that faces the rear, it does not mean "diddly!" The fact that Edge happens to make the statement that ALL Savage recoil lugs are bent? That is obvioulsy just an opinion...I'm sure Joe DeGrande would dispute it! If that IS the case, I would suggest everyone with a Savage ML should immediately buy a new heavy duty recoil lug and change it. Your groups will improve imeasureably.
Youp50 indicates he has no problem and beds the lug as I do. Harley is aparantly having no problem with his set up?
Youp50 If we were to consider that the Savage "muzzleloader" barrel was not 100% (benchrest quality)square to the action..............Don't confuse this with square in a center fire Remington "style" rifle where the bolt face must be square to the head of the cartridge and centerline of the rifle boare.................What do you think the results would be? Everything on a ML takes place in front of the breech plug. The powder is contained there, the sabot and bullet. It is going to shoot where the barrel is pointed (no throat for the ojive of the bullet to engage). In my opinion, the only thing would be the fact that the scope, which is mounted to the receiver, would have to be adjusted for individual distances. Agreed, that is not good, but never the less, at a certain distance the "barrel" should shoot just fine.
The point is, this subject has been "beaten to death" once before with Edge and he has his opinion and I have mine. So how's the weather in your neck of the woods?
Richard

[youp50]

Richard,

Weather is nice, the amount of snow is beginning to get somewhat discouraging. I am having trouble understanding how all this 'global warming' is causing the amount of natural gas therms that I purchase to increase. The nice thing about 2 feet of snow on the ground is the range is typically deserted. The shotgunners play their skeet games on Saturday, but don't plow the Sporting Clays course. I usually leave the spotting scope home for the exercise, remember I can head downrange when I want.

Gotta go to camp and clean the roof. It will be a chore. There have been a couple of warm spells that have really settled the snow. Settled snow makes good igloos and sore shoulders when cleaning the roof. That stuff is tough.

I have one New Years resolution and that is to learn to post images. I remember Ben learning how to do it. He is easily my senior and admired for his willingness to learn and apply new technology.

I missed the first beating of this subject. I also bedded the rear of my action. An interesting result in my ML, is I remove the rear action screw for cleaning and I have no noticeable change in the point of impact. I do not use a torque wrench to tighten the bolts either. I do not know if that is merely dumb luck or not. I put it to rebedding the pillars. Dumb luck is not usually a quality that visits me, I normally get the bad variety of luck.

[edge]

Once again Richard found that the subject has been beaten to death, ONLY AFTER HE put in his 2 cents for the THIRD time!

I really wonder if "well noted benchrest gunsmith (Dave Tooley) from Gastonia, NC" squares up his actions and uses an oversize machined recoil lug!

He probably does, or beds the barrel, but since this thread has run its course I guess that we will never know.

edge.

[KerryB]

Jan 4, 2009 7:17:37 GMT -5 edge said:

I really wonder if "well noted benchrest gunsmith (Dave Tooley) from Gastonia, NC" squares up his actions and uses an oversize machined recoil lug!

He probably does, or beds the barrel, but since this thread has run its course I guess that we will never know.

edge.

I'll bet he does these things to a centerfire action for sure as do Richard and myself. However i also don't see any real benefit with this sort of barreled receiver (Savage 10MLII). JMHO as a benchrest shooter..........i'm not a gunsmith! The goat has been tied up.........please don't release it on my account! ;D

[petev]

Jan 4, 2009 3:03:08 GMT -5 youp50 said:

I missed the first beating of this subject. I also bedded the rear of my action. An interesting result in my ML, is I remove the rear action screw for cleaning and I have no noticeable change in the point of impact. I do not use a torque wrench to tighten the bolts either. I do not know if that is merely dumb luck or not. I put it to rebedding the pillars. Dumb luck is not usually a quality that visits me, I normally get the bad variety of luck.

Thank you, and that's why I never added a third pillar, only bedded the action/lug.

[petev]

In my un-professional opinion, it seems to me that a recoil lug that is not square stands a lot less chance of causing problems if is bedded and vice-versa, ie is the lug and the stock around it acting as a joint or as one for a particular rifle? Rossman has already made the case for bedding.

[edge]

Jan 4, 2009 11:01:55 GMT -5 KerryB said:

I'll bet he does these things to a centerfire action for sure as do Richard and myself. However i also don't see any real benefit with this sort of barreled receiver (Savage 10MLII). JMHO as a benchrest shooter..........i'm not a gunsmith! The goat has been tied up.........please don't release it on my account! ;D

KerryB since you addressed this to me I will reply directly to you.

If the recoil lug is out of square or bent, then are only two options for the barrel:

1) the barrel is crooked relative to the bore;
2) the barrel is in perfect alignment but the is a gap between the action and barrel.

Now, richard gave an example of a lug 0.200 on one side and 0.202 on the other and since he is an expert I won't quibble.

If you have a barrel that is crooked because the lug is not square by 0.002, how far off is the end of the barrel, and how far off do you need to adjust your scope @100 yards to compensate?

Answer #1 the barrel center of the muzzle will be 0.037 from the center of the action!
Answer #2 you need to adjust your scope almost 6 inches in some direction!

This does NOT take into account that the muzzle will recoil in a slightly different direction that the rest of the rifle!

If these are insignificant than I am wrong.
Will they make you group blow up, probably not.
Will they make a difference...probably.
Perhaps they may make a difference between a sub MOA and a MOA rifle, perhaps not.
My only point is if you are going out and spending a few hundred dollars on a barrel, why not make it a bit better, and that is all I have ever said.

edge.