50 Cal accuracy

[SW]

There are a # of new board members. They are exposed to lots of discussion of 40 and 45 cal "superiority" over the 50 cal. Unfortunately, I believe it is easy to get the wrong impression concerning the 50 cal. I don't believe saboted 50 cal shooting is necessarily less accurate than saboted 45 cal shooting, BUT the 45 cals are custom barrels that cost a fair amt of money and most of the 50 cals are factory Sav barrels. This is not necessarily a fair comparison. My SMI barrel on a plain NEF frame shot right at MOA thru 200 yds and 4" gps at 300 yds and this is with a relatively poor trigger/etc. Some of our Sav 50s(mine was fire lapped) could shoot MOA or apparently better for some(not me) to 200 yds and mine shot appx 4" at 300 also. I don't see extreme accuracy imporvements (but I do see some) with the saboted 45s. The Harvester sabot/200SST or 195 Barnes seem to be a perfect match for the 45 and is incredibly accurate, flat and can be fast(over 2700'/sec).
Now I don't want a 50 for these reasons: 1) recoil - hard on me and scope and to some degree, my ability to shoot accurately 2) all that massive energy, at the sacrifice of trajectory and #1 above, is needless for whitetails. We don't hunt whitetails with 458 Win Mags or the Nitro series of calibers but we shoot 300g bullets at 2300-2500+'/sec - does this make sense??, 3) The 40 sabotless(as good as it has gotten for the masses) and the 45 saboted provide outstanding accuracy, flat trajectory, more than adequate killing power, easier on the shoulder and scope than the higher recoiling 50 cal, seems more consistent - less unexplained fliers, etc,etc,etc..
The 50 cal started being the std caliber for MLing because the 50 cal RB(175-177gs) held energy better than the 45 cal RB(128g). The round ball with it's terrible ballistics/energy shouldn't be a driving force still today with even BP/subs, much less smokeless MLing. Tradition is what has us still dealing with 50 cals. The old argument about "not enough" bullet selection for 40s and 45s - I don't understand. The 200SST represents the "best" in the more frangible bullet arena to which many subscribe and the 195/175 Barnes represents "the best" in the "pass-thru" category - both these thoughts are IMO.
Even though the 50 can still be as accurate as a 45, as for "me and my house" we will hunt with the 40 and 45.
This post was primarily designed to help some of the newer smokeless shooters and to antagonize the older members of this board.

[orion]

You make sense.

It seems to me after reading this board for about a year that Savage is missing a great opportunity to make some money. Why don't they just offer the ML II with some 45 and 40 cal barrels, and new bolt release. They would sell like hot cakes. I would probably buy one. They could sell an upgraded version for a few bucks more with a ram rod that is not attched to barrel, no sights with integral scope mounts like ruger, a real pillar bed job or bedding block, free floated barrel, that would also sell like crazy.

I am sure most would agree.

[rangeball]

I'm in the process of having SMI build a .50 barrel for my H&R. If my state allowed .40 bullets in a ML for hunting, I'd have gone .45 for sure and shot saboted .40s, without a doubt. I agonized of the decision for quite some time, and came to the conclusion by reading just about everything I could find here and other boards that the saboted .50 will be plenty accurate for my needs.

[rexxer]

I wonder how the .50 Savage would fair against a .50 Pacnor! It seems like the .50 is not the caliber of choice for conversions.

Seems like a lot of different opinions on the accuracy or the Savage .50,anywhere from sub m.o.a.. to garbage can lids!

What is the .50's average size group at a 100 yards from our board members? Might be kind of interesting!

[bloodtrailer]

I think the savage is the best gun at the price, it could be better but at what cost. Most people look at $$$ then at what the gun can do . Most of the people here are well above the average muzzle loaders shooters knowledge and skill. many people just want to hunt an extra season they want good value fair shooting 2in at 100yrds Knight TC CVA , Most who buy a savage want more Speed 2200plus and better accuracy You have to weigh out charges more like reloading tweaking for the best combo. willing to play with different bullets sabots powders( Joe shmoe wants things easy 3 pellets 250bullet and a scope with yard rings) By adding .45 or .40 bedding, lapping and so on the price would revile a custom muzzle loader (Henry Ball) WE already have one of the best WE choose to make it better and evolve into a new better muzzle loader and as demand gets stronger some company will make the product (David D's barrels) and some day savage might see the light ( someone must think savage is great or why would BH209 be made?)

[bigmoose]

Left me echo SW views, Before Rick made my .45, I used my Ball .50, I shot book loads, 250gr. Hornady XTP, 44grs 5744, with it I shot a number of 3 shoot, one hole groups. and while my RB .45cal is a proven Moose killer, I would use the .50 for Brown Bears and any bigger animals.
I have yet to use a Barnes 350gr X bullet pushed with 68-70 grs of H4198, on game, but I think it will take any animal on this green earth. It is a great penetrator .50 have there place, BUT my RB Special is in a class all by itself, Every time I take it to the range, I smile and say thanks Rick

[bigmoose]

you must consider, that muzzleloaders, are but a speck on Savages bottom line

[Buckrub]

SW, good points. You, sir, are a thinker!

However, to seriously reply, I'd have to say the main reason to NOT go through all the changes that you have done to arrive at your gun setup, is.........well, simply it's not necessary.

Now.....clearly..... I am the worst one on earth to make that claim, because many of the hunting and fishing paraphernalia I have acquired is not necessary. So, there are certainly times to simply buy something just because it's your money and your time and it's neat and that's that. Honest, that's a serious and plenty good enough reason to do things. If I work for a living it's my money and I'll blow it if'n I want. I have a ton of junk that I don't actually need. I have a .270 and a .30-06 and there's not ONE truly valid reason for that. Yet I do.

So, I cannot argue. Don't want to argue. I actually LIKE your point, and agree with it.

But the other side is........it's probably not necessary. Now, if I had one of these guns that some have that are finicky and picky and inconsistent, I might use that as a legitimate excuse to get a .40 or .45. But in Arkansas, I truly see no value in a .45. If I go to the trouble to change barrels, I want to eliminate the sabot. Anything short of that, I'll just stay where I am.

Second, what I have is uncannily accurate, to a valid upper field range I have yet to determine! My load drops deer in their tracks. So why bother changing? If I liked experimenting and was a paper puncher, then fine. And not one thing wrong with being that. But as a DEER HUNTER, I have found nirvana and have not one reason to change a thing. I have gone from giving up ML hunting to "can't wait to go again" just because of this thing, and I ain't gonna hurt Betsy's feelings by changing her much. I already gave her a face lift, that's enough.

For what it's worth, I say all this not to disagree with you, cause I don't.....but to let folks know that you CAN just buy and off the shelf ML II and be happy as a dead pig in the sunshine!

As to why we shoot 300g bullets out of .50 barrels at 2300 fps, it's cause that's what works. I started with smaller bullets but they have this or that disadvantage. What I use has no known disadvantages.

And you must be a little guy, huh? I shot my .50 with 60g of N120 twenty-eight straight times last August, with just a Tshirt, and never noticed. I just don't want to 'scare' the casual reader into thinking recoil on these things is massive.

And will all that said........the FIRST thing I'm gonna do when I get rich is buy an entirely new .40, with a pretty stock and neat scope, and go shoot an antelope with it!!

********
As to the issue about Savage making different guns, or modifications.......I don't get it either. But I do have a buddy that I can NOT convince about the Savage ML and his stock answer is "If smokeless ML'ing is safe and as effective as you say it is, every ML manufacturer on Earth would jump on the bandwagon to make another buck. They are not in business for 'principle'. They are profit oriented. The fact that they don't do so tells me that there are more issues with this than you know about".......and I can't convince him otherwise regardless what I say.

I tell him that simply being able to not worry with the cleaning issues is enough, even if it shot 100 yards only, and was no more accurate than a Knight. Still, he doesn't listen. In fact, I have several friends who feel the same way.

But it's just simply nuts for someone, Savage or someone, not to exploit this. If they would do so, more and more State G&F would give in, just like they have for scopes and inlines. It is crazy that they don't, and one more thing about all this that I do NOT understand!

[SW]

I was at a large sporting goods store(D&W - Jbr, AR) recently and listened to the salesman talking to a few customers concerning MLers and what bullets to use. UNBELIEVABLE what he said. Ignorance was rampent on both sides of the counter. This was also, opinionated ignorance!! When I go to a public range(VERY RARELY!!) what I hear and see is also hard to take in. We, on this board, are not the norm! We represent a very small minority of MLer shooters. We are inconsquential in the market place. These guns don't make money for stores with follow up buying. MLing is a racket, largely. At least around here, many "hunters" are extremely ignorant of shooting in any sort of disciplined way.

[youp50]

All true, I shoot the 50 cause I paid 250 bucks for it. Along with a double arm load of stuff. Deals like that don't come by often. To upgrade to a 45 would not be cost effective, particularly for a 10 day muzzle season and I can use a center fire during fire arm deer season.

I would venture that most can find an adequate 200 yard load for their 50 ML.


A point of interest; the term moa is minute of angle. It came from the distance one minute of an angle provides. An circle is divided into 360 degrees. Each degree is divided into 60 minutes. Actual 1 MOA at 100 yards is slightly more than 1 inch. Gun writers have taken the liberty to call it one inch. This is a linear function. It means that 1 moa is that regardless of distance. To follow this thought and staying with the gun scribes interepetation , a 1 MOA gun will shoot 2 inch group at 200 yards, 3 inches at 300 etc.

I have heard of some firearms that actually do better at 200 than 100 yards. This is commonly attributed to the bullet needing more distance to stabilize. Some rifles shoot flatter than ballistic tables state possible. This is attributed to a superior muzzle that stabilizes the bullet very well. I attribute it to magic. Having a magic firearm is a good thing.

[bigmoose]

Steve,

I only have a public range, If the folks on either side of me are new to the range, when you go down range to work on targets, I hear, Hey, did you put that target up with the holes in it.
ML can't shoot like that. I had one fine gent, tell me I,m faking shooting, he was proud of a group he shot, about 3 1/2 to 4 inches, I took my car keys out pointed to my car, and said, if i can't half the size of your group, you own my car, but if I can beat it, you owe me whatever money you have in your pocket, he said he only had about 50 dollars in his pocket, I said It will be the easest 50 I ever made. The regulars, told him just give the 50, he said he doesn't gamble. I told him watch thur the spotting scope, while I shoot a new group, after the fitst shoot, he picked up his stuff and left, as far as I know he hastn't been back RB Rules
In fairness to the gent, before, I started shooting the Savages, I never produced the kind of groups, with my Knight Rifles, but that was a long time ago, maybe they shoot much better now

[dans]

Pac Nor 50 caliber drop in dd barrels are still in the testing stages. I just got an e mail from Chris at Pac Nor and was told that they are testing the various 50 cal barrels they make to find which one works the best with saboted bullets. The first one is a .505 groove .498 land that they are working on. As far as accuracy with the factory 50 cal barrel I have seen many of these that will shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards and several that will shoot sub moa at 100 yards. You just have to experiment with the components to find the right combination. For the average hunter all that needs to be done is select the book load of choice and sight in the rifle. Smokeless out performs black powder and subs substantially. I haven't shot any non smokeless muzzleloaders since I bought the first smokeless savage when they first came out. I endured endless posts about the savage not really being a real muzzleloader, but a modern single shot rifle and how it gave the user an unfair advantage over the smokers. It was cursed as being illegal, immoral, unethical,unsafe and the death knell of muzzleloading. But forward thinkers, wanting to be on the cutting edge of technology continue to buy and use these controversial rifles.

[RBinAR]

8-)Steve'o the accuracy issue was... well, never an issue. In fact some of the most accurate rifles around are.. errr 50 caliber. Anyone remember the 50 BMG? I thought some used to call it a pretty accurate rifle at 1000 yards or better. My 50-140 is not too bad either even if it does not weigh 25 pounds or shoot 750 grain bullets to 2800fps.

I'm fairly sure a 50 caliber rifle with a new custom barrel will equal a 45 or 40 caliber in most cases.

So the issue is bullets and sabots not accuracy. A 45 can shoot a much lighter bullet (with same aerodynamics) to speed with ease. If that's not your thrill then shooting similar weight bullets without the limits of a sabot could be.

Any bullet shot from a 50 caliber will either be somewhat bulky, in a sabot, or fly like a brick. 50 caliber sabot-less is a nut I can crack fairly easily but who wants to shoot 300, 350, or 400 grain pistol bullets in this caliber? I have a barrel that is a perfect fit for 50 caliber pistol bullets but I can feel the pain already.

If bullets are not the entire reason then I'd choose load pressure as the reason. I think you'd agree the ability to make pressure gives a wide range of load possibility and eliminates a great deal of worry about temperature sensitivity.

Buckrub seems to want to make the point about that a stock Savage makes a great deal, and I agree. It may be remembered that for years I worked only with basic model 10MLs in order to gain better working for the mass consumer. I might have even made some contribution to the use of N120 as a common load, but with another bullet besides the BO. The basic Savage rifle is great, I highly recommend it. I also hope the first time visitor will not think of this board as only for the modified 10ML.

Basic still works. However after shooting 45 or 40 for a while one might think the basic model has some "relative" disadvantages.

[mike3132]

+ most bullets and sabots combinations are made for the .50 which gives you a much better selection unless you shoot sabotless and make your own bullets.

80% or higher muzzle loader shooters are just hunters wanting the extra season. They don't care about shooting little bitty groups @ 200 yards. They want to push 2-3 pellets down a barrel and shove a bullet/sabot in and go hunting.

Now, I'm not caught up in the .45 craze because my stock .50's will do every thing I want them to do and the components also work in my .454 Casull.

Bottom line is for the average 10ML owner the stock .50 barrel will shoot good enough with book loads out to 200 yards to kill any game. Mike

[tar12]

Well,its hard for the first time visitor posing a question in regards to his saboted .50 not to get this impression with individuals injecting their single minded, uninvited and irrelevant 40/45 propaganda.

[bigmoose]

their single minded and irrelevant 40/45 propaganda, Wow, does that mean we have to stand in the corner.......................you first Steve.
Mine has a Savage receiver, does that mean, Im excused, plus I still shoot my .50........sometime.

[SW]

Jan 9, 2009 15:51:45 GMT -5 bigmoose said:

their single minded and irrelevant 40/45 propaganda, Wow, does that mean we have to stand in the corner.......................you first Steve.

I'm in the corner, now. It's a nice corner with a lot of great people in it.
20+ years ago, I had a dental asst whose husband had never driven a "foreign" car, would never drive a "foreign car(even though his American nameplated truck was actually made in Mexico and gave him losts of trouble), and certainly would never own one. One day she had to use my Honda Civic to pick him up. Later on he drove my wife's 11 year old Acura(we kept it 12 years - about normal for us), and loved it. He now drives an Acura - I still drive a Honda Civic(Si . Driving an Si is a lot like shooting a 40. There just might be a parallel somewhere here.

PS Didn't I say "and to antagonize some of the older members here"?

[KerryB]

Jan 9, 2009 15:02:42 GMT -5 tar12 said:

Well,its hard for the first time visitor posing a question in regards to his saboted .50 not to get this impression with individuals injecting their single minded, uninvited and irrelevant 40/45 propaganda.

Ouch! Someone get up on the wrong side of the bed?

[chuck41]

Edge,
Is there room on that new board maybe there will be a place for us "single minded, uninvited and irrelevant 40/45" propagandists so we wont confuse the first timers? ;D

Actually the Savage 50 is still the best bargain in a stock commercial muzzleloading rifle out there. It does what it was designed to do, and does it very well. However, there are a lot of us that want more than that and the option of sabotless shooting with lighter recoil and long range accuracy is very appealing.

Most of the people who frequent this board want more and this is just about the only place on the web where they can find that. I don't necessarily mean "more" in terms of sabotless 40s like mine, but different loads, bullets, and tips than what the meager information that comes with the ML10 provides.

For the weekend shooter that fires 5 bullets a year, that probably just ain't necessary. Why heck, a smokeless muzzleloader probably isn't either. But then again, the vast majority of them just don't bother to frequent this board.

Until Edge gives us our own space to pontificate about our extraneous non-50 interests on that new board I guess I will just stand in the corner with BigMoose, SW, KerryB and others, grin a lot and giggle occasionally.

[Harley]

Tar12, I know where you are coming from, but as Cher said in "Clueless"....harsh.

Steve, you DO have a sense of humor and have stirred things up.

And to everybody else, my impression from two years of daily reading here is that most people don't experience anything approaching satisfactory performance with their .50's right out of the box. A few do, of course, but most have to pose multiple questions and scour the TIPS section in efforts to diagnose issues that seem more or less common to these rifles. My own opinion is that it's worth all the effort WHEN it pays off; but, I think Savage should tie a warning tag to the trigger guard advising potential buyers that they are going to be unhappy trying to shoot this saboted ML early season in the South. I further resent the fickle finger of fate that seems to make buying an adequately tight SS barrel a probability akin to winning the lottery.

Don't send me any death threats, please.

Harley

[tick]

I've had 2 .50 savages and both did a great job for hunting deer to 200 yds. These factory guns shoot well but after being a member of this board for several years, I've learned that there are exceptions to the rule. The tolerances of a factory barrel are not consistant. This is just the nature of the beast. So when you read that this gun or that gun shoots MOA out to 200 or 300 yds, it doesn't mean that your gun will. Different guns like different powder/ bullet/ sabot combinations. Depending on your bore size, your gun may or may not shoot as well as someone else's. The reason I like the .45 PacNor is that with all the custom 25" .458 barrels that have been placed on the savages that shoot lights out even from someone else's .45, your barrel will probably shoot just as fantastic. It's just easier to find the right combination and there aren't any fliers. Will I kill any more deer with the .45? Probably not but it's actually fun going to the range and seeing all these tight groups.

[Panhandle]

As a newcomer to Savage shooting I usually don't jump in these type of conversations. I'm a hunter first but I also like to leave the range with smile of confidence on my face. More times than not I left with that smile after a day shooting my .50 cal. Yes I wouldn't mind having a Pac-Nor .45 but I'm liking my 1 3/4"-2" groups at 200 with the .50. As a hunter I shot two deer this year with my .50; one at 243yds and the other at 308yds with both traveling less than 15yds....I'm still smiling at my .50 for that . Maybe I'll get me a .45 someday but it's not going to be today. I'm taking my .50 in tomorrow and cutting 3" off the barrel in an effort to lighten her up. I hope it doesn't ruin the accuracy or I might be in the market for a .45 sooner than I think.
Zen

[bigmoose]

chuck41,

Absolutely, no grinning and certainly no giggling, Its a good sign when we can poke fun at each other, besides no ever took me seriously.......well maybe a time or too.

But, I'm in good company with my fellow "irreevants" I always like that word, but never know how to spell it, folks can learn a lot, reading these posts........thanks

[hillbill]

when I ordered the pacnor on monday a friend of mine had to be talked out of ordering one for his,who did the talking? me!. his gun is a legitimate one holer, the only modification is a bedding job. my argument to him, how much better do you think the 45 will shoot than your one holer?I think he finally agreed. my point is if a new MLll owner will go to the trouble to see what their 50 will do they might be very satisfied with the accuracy.

Then again you have guys like Richard who everyone knows has tried everything in his barrel to no avail. the average muzzleload hunter who can hit a pie plate at 100 grins and goes hunting with all the confidence he is holding a deer killer, whats the difference between the two? Plenty!

The great thing about this board, and I guess the reason I read every single post almost every day is this, The first time MLll shooter that visits here can get all the advice/ help he could possibly ask for, on the other hand the experienced accuracy nuts out there that are not satisfied with anything but a ragged hole can exchange knowledge, ideas etc. From what I have observed there are many of the latter lot that visit here regularly and it is from you guys that we all learn.It doesn't take a newbie long to realize that he gets good advice here and if he heeds that advice the stock MLll is more than sufficent for the intended task for most.

Are the 45& 40 converts trying to take over? NA, just trying to find satisfaction with a good design. One thing for sure, in short order we will smile over our decision or frown about money wasted......Bill

[cedar]

This is funny! This gun will shoot on it's terms. They are just as individual as their owners. A fussy man gets a fussy gun there is going to be big trouble. All I wanted when I bought mine was a gun I could shoot deer with at open sight ranges (125 to 150 tops for me). Thats when the fight started. How could I trust a gun that threw one out of three lord knows where. It wasn't on a round bale that's for certain. The 3 things I hate about deer hunting are crippled deer,gut shot deer,and wrecking good meat. I would rather not hunt than put up with any of that. Not that I haven't but if I can stack the deck I will,this gun didn't look like it was going to do that. With the encouragement of a few on this board and some luck my gun is a solid deer gun to 200 yds. But on it's terms its got a scope and it's shooting what it wants to.This post isn't going to tell most of you guys anything but if I could get mine to shoot most any new owner can to .

[dave d.]

Jan 9, 2009 14:08:52 GMT -5 dans said:

Pac Nor 50 caliber drop in dd barrels are still in the testing stages. I just got an e mail from Chris at Pac Nor and was told that they are testing the various 50 cal barrels they make to find which one works the best with saboted bullets. The first one is a .505 groove .498 land that they are working on. As far as accuracy with the factory 50 cal barrel I have seen many of these that will shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards and several that will shoot sub moa at 100 yards. You just have to experiment with the components to find the right combination. For the average hunter all that needs to be done is select the book load of choice and sight in the rifle. Smokeless out performs black powder and subs substantially. I haven't shot any non smokeless muzzleloaders since I bought the first smokeless savage when they first came out. I endured endless posts about the savage not really being a real muzzleloader, but a modern single shot rifle and how it gave the user an unfair advantage over the smokers. It was cursed as being illegal, immoral, unethical,unsafe and the death knell of muzzleloading. But forward thinkers, wanting to be on the cutting edge of technology continue to buy and use these controversial rifles.

:)dan,i asked casey 2 days ago if we sent him some sabots if he would check which .50 barrel would be the best fit for us and he said sure.jeff (typical10)has some mmps and 300gr xtps in the mail for him to push threw his .50's.he's going to call me after he test's them so we will know soon.news travels fast around here ;D

[jkruger]

I'm a new 10ml-2 owner wondering what the h--- I got myself into?

[dans]

Yeah dave I was about to offer to send them several combos for their testing purposes. So that little detail is taken care of. I may be one of the first to order one when they get them sorted out. I have a dream of a matching pair of savages in 45 and in 50. Oh and by the way energy delivered at long range = advantage 50.

[Harley]

Jkruger, as a new owner, if you've already shot the Savage, you already know what you've gotten yourself into: Either you are satisfied with the rifle's performance OR you have a new hobby.

Harley

[DW]

I have both 45 & 50, only one is a Savage. The 45 has a slight advantage in accuracy sabotless over the Savage .50. Saboted .45 vs saboted .50, the Savage is better on the whole. IF I would ever convert my Savage to another caliber, it would be because of recoil, and the fact that I do like sabotless shooting better just because there is no wait involved.
Maybe there is a distinct advantage 45 vs 50 in accuracy for some, but I have not found it to be the case between my two guns shooting out to 250yds.