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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 11:20:55 GMT -5
When i received my new HB Savage. It came supplied to me with a one hole Vent-liner. Well i shot around 150 shot's with it. Sub 1" groups no sweat. Right before i went on vacation i decided to really clean the gun. So in the process i thru out the Vent-liner and put a new one in. So now a 3 hole liner is in the gun. I really got no good accuracy with it at all. Maybe a couple 1" groups. So i managed to shoot 27 shot's thru it before the liner cracked. With that liner my group size average would be around 1 1/2 to 2". So after that i put in another new 3 hole liner. I shot 3 shot's and got around a 7/8 group. Today i went and shot some more. The best group i had was about 1 1/2 inch. A total of 24 shot's fired thru the second three hole liner, and it is cracked in two places. Accuracy is very bad now. As all gun's are different. My Savage does not work with a 3 hole liner. 45grns of 5744 was the load for both 3 hole liners. So to turn a negative into a positive note. My one hole liners are on the way. ;D I have been shooting DeadCenters and SST'S. One other problem also. 200grn Shockwaves are hitting the ground 25 yards before the target. I think it might have something to do with the three hole liner also.
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Post by mamaflinter on Jul 11, 2004 11:25:39 GMT -5
Grouse why did you throw the liner away? Was it accidental or intentional? From what I've heard several of the 10MLII's do not like the 3 hole liners.
It could very well be that the inaccuracy you are experiencing is due to the liners, even the bullets hitting the ground 25 ft. in front of the target.
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Post by DannoBoone on Jul 11, 2004 11:41:08 GMT -5
People's different experiences with the 3-hole liners just seems wierd! I have some, but haven't tried them, yet. But by reading the different posts of everyone, it seems that the slower powders are the ticket to both accuracy and longevity of the 3-holers.
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Post by Loggy on Jul 11, 2004 11:57:06 GMT -5
One other problem also. 200grn Shockwaves are hitting the ground 25 yards before the target. I think it might have something to do with the three hole liner also
I would of loved to see your expression when that bullet hit 25 YDS in front of target! ;D Man Grouse, I can get closer than that blowin a charge out of my flinters with a CO2. ;D
Looks like an expression such as "3 holes are better then one" is not true in all cases. ;D
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Post by buuba on Jul 11, 2004 12:09:32 GMT -5
when I shot the 200 gr sst's, they blew through the base of the sabot, I never did see where they hit at all.
When I put a 28ga base wad under it and fired the same load, it hit the backstop, but not the 3X3 target (that would be feet, not inches!). So I dont know about the 200's!
-bubba
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Post by simonkenton on Jul 11, 2004 12:13:44 GMT -5
Grouse I don't mean to insult your intelligence but are you using a sub base on those 200s? They are behaving for you just like they did for me before I began using the sub base. Got to glue it on.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 12:42:15 GMT -5
Grouse I don't mean to insult your intelligence but are you using a sub base on those 200s? They are behaving for you just like they did for me before I began using the sub base. Got to glue it on. That would be an added complication i dont want. I want to keep the gun the way it was designed. Safe clean and simple. No reason at all for me to use that bullet. The 260grn DeadCenter is the ticket for me. The 250grn Shockwaves with MMP Sabots work fine also.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 14:06:48 GMT -5
Grouse why did you throw the liner away?
Mamaflinter, I didn't know the other one's weren't the same.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 14:13:02 GMT -5
I would of loved to see your expression when that bullet hit 25 YDS in front of target! Man Grouse, I can get closer than that blowin a charge out of my flinters with a CO2. Hi Loggy, Yes you are correct. But it really didn't surprise me. Since i have gotten my digital scale. I have been also weighing some bullets. The 200grn Shockwaves are really inconsistent . 250grn Shockwaves shoot fine with MMP Sabots. DeadCenters are buy far the best out of all my gun's.
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Post by SW on Jul 11, 2004 16:17:29 GMT -5
Grouse' I believe that if you were to drop back to a slower powder such as V V120 or H-322 or any mentioned by RB/others that likely the 3-hole ventliner would be more satisfying to you. You might really like it. Though I have really good success with the 1-hole vent liner with both single phase and duplex loads, I suspect that eventually I'll be shooting slightly slower powders with the 3-holer. 200 Shockwave - shoots great on my stock rifle but my firelapped bore in my highly accuratized rifle is just too slick for it with duplex loads, 1/3 missfires. Suspect 3-hole ventliner may be the answer.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 16:57:06 GMT -5
Grouse' I believe that if you were to drop back to a slower powder such as V V120 or H-322 or any mentioned by RB/others that likely the 3-hole ventliner would be more satisfying to you. You might really like it. Though I have really good success with the 1-hole vent liner with both single phase and duplex loads, I suspect that eventually I'll be shooting slightly slower powders with the 3-holer. 200 Shockwave - shoots great on my stock rifle but my firelapped bore in my highly accuratized rifle is just too slick for it with duplex loads, 1/3 missfires. Suspect 3-hole ventliner may be the answer. imr 4227, AA 5744, vihtavouri n110 Are the powders recommended for my Savage. Not really interested in any other. Besides, the one hole liners are on there way.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 11, 2004 17:07:48 GMT -5
imr 4227, AA 5744, vihtavouri n110 Are the powders recommended for my Savage. Not really interested in any other. Besides, the one hole liners are on there way. If Henry Ball's prognostication is correct, they should last 4X longer than the old Savage one-hole ventliners with those powders, with accuracy. It won't take all that long to find out.
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Post by SW on Jul 11, 2004 17:17:42 GMT -5
Grouse, To each his own. Be advised that the Savage owner's manual is grossly out-of -date. They send out 3-hole vent liners which are inappropriate for the loads listed. Toby made the table himself, when only the 1-hole ventliner existed. Make sure you have the newer table. Good luck with 4227! If you stick with just those 3 powders((though V V-110 is my favorite powder), you may be missing out. When Toby, Edge, and RB speak, most experienced ML-2 users listen up. At least I do and haven't been disappointed. This is a fluid thing - these loads- better loads are continually being developed . I'll give you a great deal on some IMR 4227, Alliant 4200, RL 7 etc, which were all Savage "approved loads that few if any of the experienced shooters use anymore, including Toby who furnished them to Savage to print in their manual, which has changed over the years, largely due to what we on this board test. It isn't the Bible, in fact, currently it is quite incorrect for the vent liners they equip their rifles with. Just my thoughts.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 18:06:40 GMT -5
Grouse, To each his own. Be advised that the Savage owner's manual is grossly out-of -date. They send out 3-hole vent liners which are inappropriate for the loads listed. Toby made the table himself, when only the 1-hole ventliner existed. Make sure you have the newer table. Good luck with 4227! If you stick with just those 3 powders((though V V-110 is my favorite powder), you may be missing out. When Toby, Edge, and RB speak, most experienced ML-2 users listen up. At least I do and haven't been disappointed. This is a fluid thing - these loads- better loads are continually being developed . I'll give you a great deal on some IMR 4227, Alliant 4200, RL 7 etc, which were all Savage "approved loads that few if any of the experienced shooters use anymore, including Toby who furnished them to Savage to print in their manual, which has changed over the years, largely due to what we on this board test. It isn't the Bible, in fact, currently it is quite incorrect for the vent liners they equip their rifles with. Just my thoughts. SW, Thank's for the information. The Savage book doesn't really look that good. My T/C manual is way better. Anyway, with my first one hole liner. My accuracy was awesome. If my accuracy stay's the same with the new one hole liners, as was with my first one hole liner. I really couldn't do any better at all. I really believe i wont have a problem.
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wilded
Spike
Make time for the important things in life
Posts: 38
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Post by wilded on Jul 11, 2004 19:30:28 GMT -5
Where do you buy the one hole liners? Thanks, ET
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santa dyslexic satan
Guest
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Post by santa dyslexic satan on Jul 11, 2004 19:44:27 GMT -5
Where do you buy the one hole liners? Thanks, ET
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 20:30:57 GMT -5
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wilded
Spike
Make time for the important things in life
Posts: 38
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Post by wilded on Jul 11, 2004 20:34:45 GMT -5
Thanks, ET
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Post by edge on Jul 11, 2004 20:41:42 GMT -5
imr 4227, AA 5744, vihtavouri n110 Are the powders recommended for my Savage. Not really interested in any other. SNIP Not trying to provoke anything here, and I have not seen any of the more resent manuals, BUT the 260 Dead Centers are not a recommended bullet either, so why are you using them? My bet is that someone associated with you buying your rifle has suggested them, you have some good advise here and perhaps a broader view of components would help! edge.
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Post by grouse on Jul 11, 2004 21:01:27 GMT -5
Not trying to provoke anything here, and I have not seen any of the more resent manuals, BUT the 260 Dead Centers are not a recommended bullet either, so why are you using them? My bet is that someone associated with you buying your rifle has suggested them, you have some good advise here and perhaps a broader view of components would help! edge. Edge, As a matter of fact. Henry Ball himself, told me they are a fine bullet for the Savage. And based on my shooting they are a fine Bullet. Edge, i shoot DeadCenter Bullets with all my Muzzleloaders. Were you are going with this, who knows.
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Post by edge on Jul 11, 2004 21:21:38 GMT -5
Edge, As a matter of fact. Henry Ball himself, told me they are a fine bullet for the Savage. And based on my shooting they are a fine Bullet. Edge, i shoot DeadCenter Bullets with all my Muzzleloaders. Were you are going with this, who knows. Don't get upset, BUT I don't think you REALLY read my post. YOU wrote:"imr 4227, AA 5744, vihtavouri n110 Are the powders recommended for my Savage. Not really interested in any other." From which I inferred that YOU wanted to use ONLY SAVAGE LOADS!!!! CLEARLY, whether they are Savage loads or not means nothing, and you were just talking. I erred in taking what you said liturally. Sorry. edge.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 11, 2004 22:07:02 GMT -5
Not trying to provoke anything here, and I have not seen any of the more resent manuals, BUT the 260 Dead Centers are not a recommended bullet either, so why are you using them? The problem is there are no "recent" manuals, and if you use the manual supplied with the 10ML-II currently, you would only be shooting a Hornady XTP-- 250 or 300 grains. You also would be under the false assumption that you are compelled to use "ONLY . . . SABOTS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". Problem is, MMP has never designed a sabot specifically for smokeless, and the suggested sabot has been made by MMP since 1987 or so. Worse yet, Hornady no longer even uses MMP sabots. No wonder a new 10ML-II owner can become a bit confused. Sadly, for just no reason.
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Post by edge on Jul 11, 2004 22:20:38 GMT -5
Randy,
That was my point exactly! SW was suggesting some of the slower powders that also are not in the Manual, since it is outdated. These powders are excellent for the 3 hole liner and just because they are not listed is not a reason to dismiss them out of hand.
edge.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 11, 2004 22:55:14 GMT -5
Randy, These powders are excellent for the 3 hole liner and just because they are not listed is not a reason to dismiss them out of hand. edge. Actually, I've had 3/4" groups with AA 2015, Reloder 7, and N120 with the one hole vent-liner-- so, there is no particular reason to 'dis powders that I can see. Most people I know, if they plan on deer hunting with a muzzleloader inside 200 yards, would be pretty darn thrilled with a sub 3/4 MOA load that has over 1700 fpe of terminal energy at 200 yards. Once you have that, which is exactly what 45 grains of 5744 pushing a 260 gr. .40 / 50 Dead Center is in many 10ML-IIs, there is hardly an urgent or compelling reason to search for more in a hunting load, either. It's just time to go hunting.
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Post by SW on Jul 11, 2004 23:18:53 GMT -5
Randy, I have a compelling reason to not use your DC/5744 load : I own appx 500(out of 600) blem 250Shockwaves, and 2070(out of 2100) blem 200SSTs. Feel like I must use them. If I didn't have any bullets, I'd likely get 260 DCs 5744, try the combo, and stop there. The ballistics of that load vs 2400'/sec and the 250SST are very close to 300yds. Probably the former is the more practical load.
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Post by RBinAR on Jul 12, 2004 0:16:19 GMT -5
This rides an old road that is so wavy it makes me seasick. Those who like the slow loads with the 260 grain bullet let it be known that that's a very good thing. If you have something that works great. But it ain't magic and it ain't necessarily the best for the average shooter. It seems but I won't accuse that you think there is a moral reason to shoot such loads. As much as I would thank you for sharing your information on this board remember: there is no moral purity to suggest that it is better, BECAUSE! well because of whatever. Not because it's not a listed powder. Not because it comes direct from Henry Ball. Not because we are trying to stick with the manual as law. Henry Ball himself has told me many times of he and his son shooting loads that are simply beyond anything listed in the manual. Henry himself has told me of and suggested many different type of bullets including one way to shoot full caliber conical bullets. Henry's son was insturmental in shooting loads of Lil Gun powder. Now I know that Savage has handled the three hole vent liner like everything else. They don't CARE! If you are feeling the need to vent on that subject feel free to attact the liner the way of distribution and the manual. But also understand the three hole liner is very capable even if it is not for you. The same with many other components. I'm indifferent about PRs bullets but won't discredit them because the Web site suggest a load of 48 grains of N120 (an unlisted powder) for use in the 10-ML. I won't even discredit them on the fact that I prefer another bullet. If it works for you GO FOR IT. But don't be high handed about being or having purity by using just suggested loads. The manual is a mess, that's as true as there is daylight. The thing to do isn't to cling to it as the holy grail. Don't TAKE THAT WRONG! If you want to preservre the single hole liner or any favorite load type I've already suggested the aftermarket will make that easily possible. My point is that limiting the 10-ML to three powders or a simple set of components on the limitations of an outdated manual is simply impractical.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 1:55:16 GMT -5
Randy, I have a compelling reason to not use your DC/5744 load : I own appx 500(out of 600) blem 250Shockwaves, and 2070(out of 2100) blem 200SSTs. Seems that you have become overly blessed? Regrettably, my Savages came with no such "accessory pack."
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Post by mike3132 on Jul 12, 2004 12:23:16 GMT -5
I agree with you RB. To say one load is all you will ever need to me is ridiculous. there are many powders and bullets available to the 10 ml shooter that work and work very well. you see it all the time on here where a certain number of grains of powder and bullet shot good groups for one and a little more of that powder with the same bullet shot even better for another.
pr bullets are not my favorite bullet and i wont buy anymore of them. not because they are not good but because three years ago i called Cecil to talk to him about the loose fitting sabots on the qt's in my savage. he proceeded to ream my _ss about how smokeless powder didn't belong in muzzle loaders and it wasn't his product that was the fault it was my gun and powder to blame. im kind of glad that happened because i found a better bullet for my gun.
to each his own, use what you want, i do. mike
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Post by DannoBoone on Jul 12, 2004 17:39:43 GMT -5
I agree with you RB. To say one load is all you will ever need to me is ridiculous. there are many powders and bullets available to the 10 ml shooter that work and work very well. you see it all the time on here where a certain number of grains of powder and bullet shot good groups for one and a little more of that powder with the same bullet shot even better for another. to each his own, use what you want, i do. mike Ditto. Aggravating are the many posts in so many forums made by a very few in which the holy manual is referenced when they disagree with another poster, but it's just fine to do so when they go outside of the manual. (Hyprocacy??) But it's "safe" when they do it. Some higher authority has told them so.
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Post by RandyWakeman on Jul 12, 2004 22:15:14 GMT -5
pr bullets are not my favorite bullet and i wont buy anymore of them. not because they are not good but because three years ago i called Cecil to talk to him about the loose fitting sabots on the qt's in my savage. he proceeded to ream my _ss about how smokeless powder didn't belong in muzzle loaders and it wasn't his product that was the fault it was my gun and powder to blame. im kind of glad that happened because i found a better bullet for my gun. That's a posture that I'll confess to not understanding at all. Anyone who takes the time to learn a bit about the 10ML-II, and then changes their mind should be praised-- not condemned for their change of heart. That, IMO, goes doubly for state game departments.
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