Shot size question

[ozark]

I posed this same question on the shotgun portion but got no comments. The question: What is the least size shot that will penetrate into the brain of a turkey at say 40 yards? Since 71/2 shot has so many more pellets the chance of one or more hitting the vital head area is increased. Good, provided that penetration is sufficient. I have taken turkey with 4s, 5s and 6s but never tried smaller.

[bubba]

in michigan, 6 is the smallest legal size.............. perhaps that sez something indirectly eh?

[ozark]

Thanks bubba, I would guess they had valid reasons. I will stick with the larger pellets.

[E.T.]

In Ontario only 4,5 and 6 shot sizes are allowed for turkey hunting. 5 is my go shot size.

Ed

[ozark]

I did some patterning with my shotgun with 4s, 5s and 6s using a lifesize turkey head and neck target at 30 yards. On 6 targets (2 targets with each) I was somewhat surprised to discover that the 4s put more pellets in the kill zone than the other two. I used 4s last year and took a nice bird at 40 yards. It is my thinking that a gun and choke combo handles it own pecular size shot.

[E.T.]

Ozark

Thats a good observation and point made. My best pattern is obtained with #5 shot at 40yds. Where as my partner gets his best pattern with #6 at 40yds. We both shoot 870 Remingtons but different makes of choke tubes.

Ed

[tim collins]

Bubba - where did you get the minimum for Michigan as #6? My turkey hunting guide say #4 or smaller - doesn't reference a minimum anywhere. Is it listed somewhere else

[308XP]

Ozark.....My turn....
As I recall, quite a few years ago the Federal Ammo company (It might have been Winchester but I think it was Federal..I'm too old to remember & it was along time ago) or one of the ammo companies did some indepth studies and tests with turkey loads. They shot literally hundreds of actual turkey heads with many loads, shot sizes, choke tubes, and etc. and at various ranges. They then x-rayed them to actually see the skull and spinal column penetration. I don't remember all the details and all the numbers but I remember the bottom line.

Their recommendations for a clean kill 100% of the time was:
Don't exceed 28 to 30 yards with #6's.
Don't exceed 40 to 42 yards with #4's.

All these tests were before Hevi-Shot and before 3 1/2 inch shells and they also emphasized "100% Clean Kills".
We all know folks who have killed turkeys beyond these ranges, but we also know folks who admit, " they were just too far out".
Pattern your gun and trust your pattern. Long shots with light pellets are Iffy....Oh it might work sometimes, but eventually it's gonna bite you.

Patience, Patience, and more Patience......Just be still.... He's gonna come closer.....Maybe.
Good Luck,

308XP

[308XP]

I guess I should have added that my load of choice has been Remington 3 inch, 12 gauge, 1 1/2 oz. of #4 Hevi-Shot with a .665 Super Full extended tube.
The bad news is Remington doesn't load it anymore.
The good news is that I have enough stock piled to last me a few years.

I've killed several gobblers at 40 to 43 yards...but every time I pull the trigger on one that far out I wonder "is it gonna work?"
So far, so good.

308XP

[ozark]

308XP, I enjoyed and agree with your information and appreciate your addition to my knowledge. I consider 35 yards to be my maximum using 1 14 Oz. No. 4 lead shot. But last spring I took one cleanly at 40 yards because I extimated it to be within range and it had busted me and was walking directly away. This was with a 20 ga. that was scoped and patterened. As a turkey hunter you know how hard it is to let a long beard walk away. I hope that you will post more often because information like you provided is precisely what I hoped to get. IMO the heavier the shot the more penetration one gets. The trade off is less density in the pattern. Some here in Arkansas are using No. 2 shots and aiming at the turkey rather than the head/neck area. Also I notice that the Nitro Ammunition Company is loading Hevi shot in mixes of 4s, 6s and 7 1/2 shot sizes. We all want a 100 percent effective kill on every shot but wounding a few is likely for most of us. In my case I have lost only one and that was with a 12 ga. at 30 yards. Now that one really surprised me. Potential posters at least one will read your thoughts here. They are already talking here and the season is almost a month away. Oz

[308XP]

Ozark, Thanks for the "warm fuzzy"....I'm just an "ancient flattulant" with a lot of years chasing turkeys. As for your miss.....If you pattern enough guns you'll see that often a pattern has holes in it large enough for the birds head to easily fit in and thus we assume (and I guess rightfully so) that we missed when in fact the pellets flew all around his noggin. Many misses result from the head of the shooter not being fully down on the stock....assuming the gun isn't scoped. I don't use a scope but have replaced the front factory bead with a large white skeet bead and also have a white mid-rib bead. If I see 2 beads...my head isn't down and I'll shoot high. We frequently get focused on the bird and forget sight picture and "squeeze the trigger..don't flinch".
I usually try to kill 1 bird then spend the rest of the season calling for others, as a result I have seen 1st hand what happens when an unpatterened gun goes to the woods. Frequently there is a hugely disappointed hunter with a lot of excuses when often times it's not his fault (except that he didn't pattern his gun). It seems that few shotguns come from the factory shooting what I would call "acceptably straight." It seems that only turkey hunters and competative shotgunners pattern their guns. Most folks that hunt doves, ducks,and etc. never even considered it. I guess it's our own fault that the gun makers don't make their shotguns shoot any straighter than they do since most of us hunters don't even know they don't shoot straight. Then to make matters wose we don't send them back to have the problem corrected. Instead we buy aftermarket fixes such as sights, scopes, and electronic dots. I'm rambling aren't I? Oh well....


So remember...Patience...head down....squeeze the trigger....don't flinch!

Also...if you're a new turkey hunter, you should kill every legal turkey you can until you have a few under your belt and you realize this ain't rocket science and you really can call in a turkey.....then consider letting the jakes walk away and grow up.

308XP

When a bird gobbles across the "Big" creek, or across the "Big" swamp, or even from the top of the "Big" mountain....the 1st thing that you need to ask yourself....
How bad do I really want to kill a turkey?

[ozark]

I was never much interested in turkeys until a few years ago. I seen no real skill in point a shotgun at a turkey and blasting it. I got talked into going early one morning and my first call resulted in a gobble and I played with a big tom for over two hours before it came in close enough for me to shoot. It was boom/flop and I was hooked. I think it is the interaction between the hunter and bird that is addictive. Since that first morning I have taken several and darn it, I can't hardly wait to experience another battle with a single tom or a group of them. My shotgun is scoped and shoot tight patterns and I trust it. But shooting is secondary to the other things involved with me. Every hunt and every kill is different.

[RAF]

You folks are lucky down there. We don't have any turkeys up here. Well I shouldn't say that. We do but they have 2 legs, wear suits and belong to a policical party and usually lie to the voters .

[308XP]

We have a bunch of those down here as well....Shoot, they don't even run for office.....they're just our neighbors.
Our season opens next Saturday and runs through May 15th with a 3 gobbler limit. Most of the 2 year old birds will drop the 1st week then it gets tough.
A few of us frequently combine turkeys and hogs. If we go somewhere that we think we may see a hog we'll carry a scoped M/L( not a M/L shotgun, but .50cal.) To be honest when we do that we really are lookin' for a hog....but if a turkey gobbles...whoa duuude...Now we're into something. Last year I had a 14 year old boy who wanted to kill his 1st turkey. As we listened to a hen yelp we spotted a bunch of hogs...by the time it was over with he killed 2 hogs with one of them well over 200 pounds. We were 1 1/2 miles from the truck and it took us 4 hours to get the hogs butchered and backpacked back to the truck. Did I mention it was 85 degrees....Man it was hot....and Skeeters like B-52s. That boy will NEVER forget that hunt!!!

308XP

[ozark]

Our limit is two bearded turkeys with a limit of only one Jake. You have to be careful to insure that the skeeters don't cross with the turkeys because it decreases the size of the turkeys. Hog hunting is something I did as a teenager but not since.

[Reloader]

Don't exceed 28 to 30 yards with #6's.

What a total load of crap. I've killed a pile of long beards at 50 yards with #6 shot. It all depends on what choke you use. I do my load testing on HS Strut turkey patterning targets at lazered 40 and 50 yard distances. My guns prefer #6s so that's what I feed them. My best patterning gun will consistently place 15+ hits in the kill zone at 50 yards and 40 hits in the kill zone at 40 yards. It only takes one pellet.....

I feel like you need to get at least 10+ deadly hits consistently. Wheter it be 30yds or 60yds for that hit count, that should be your max range.

I've also heard the BS tale of how #6 lead doesn't carry enough energy to kill toms at long distances. What a load of crap. I shoot my loads at 1/4" plyboard mostly and alot of the #6s will go clean through at even 50 yards, don't tell me that's not enough energy

I actually made a witnessed 65 yard kill on a rio last year with #6s, killed him ston dead with one shot. I would never attempt a shot at a distance much past 50 and sorely misjudged the range on that 65 yarder while walking back to camp one evening. My point is the #6 lead carry plenty of energy to effectively kill toms at even 50+ yard ranges and more emphasis should be placed solely on pattern density and uniformity than "this pellets kills better than that pellet" BS that some will have you believe.

Oh, by the way, check out this Rio I tagged Friday Morning at 50 Yards!





I flattened him like he'd been hit by a truck and got blood all over me while toting him back to the truck. All with wimpy ole' #6s ;D

Reloader

[ozark]

I agree with much of your post reloader but not all. You must read into this that I am rather new to shotgunning. As a rifle shooter ane game eater I was never impressed with blasting a bunch of pellets into game. I love double dipped deep fried turkey breast but don't want to be eating any pellets or damaging my dentures. I believe you will agree with me that getting them in real close and keeping nearly all the pellets in the head/neck area makes for the best table fare. I have taken several turkey the last few years and I hunt in thick timber where occasionally I can have the turkey behind a tree except for the head. To be absolutely honest I have never checked to see how many pellets my 20 Ga. will put into the head/neck area of a turkey at 50 yards using any size pellets. I noticed in your pictures that you hunt in open country. Another consideration is altitude. I know that golf balls travel further in high country. Perhaps shot does also.

[Reloader]

ozark, That's where my point on pattern density and uniformity comes into play.

I never get pellets in the breast even on the 50 yard kills I make. I've killed 10 birds in the past two seasons 4 of which were 50 yards. All 4 dropped at the shot with multiple pellets to the noggin. None of those birds have had any shot in the breast. I shoot a fairly tight pattern and only aim for the top of the head. Most of my shot usually gets neck and head and above the breast. A turkey's breast actually sits fairly low on his body so head shots usually keep the pellets far enough away.

On the altitude note, I live in Louisiana and do most of my hunting around 300' so I doubt altitude has much of a noticeable roll when we are talking close range shots(sub 100 yards) with nearly any projectile.

I personally would use larger shot but I can't get the uniformity or hit counts as #6s so I go with what I know works, #6.

Good Luck this season,

Reloader

[wilmsmeyer]

Reloader,

I get what you're saying and agree. I'd rather get grazed by a shot gun slug at 100 yds then peppered/centered 20 times by a .17 rimfire at 200 yds. Actually, I'd rather not have either happen!

There is a range where a #6 pellet will not penetrate enough to get the job done, but 50 yds is not in that range.

One #2,4 or BB to the skull will do it too. However, if your gun can not reliably put at least one or two of these into the head at 50 yds then all of that great retained energy just killed a bunch of grass and saplings. Or wounded a bird.

A tight swarm of #6's is not a bad thing to apply to a turkeys head at any reasonable distance.

[Reloader]

wilmsmeyer,

I hear ya, #2 or BB would be just great if you could get them where they need to be. I wish I had a gun that would pattern at least 8 kill zone hits with #2 or BB into a turkey head at 50 yards. That would probably be one of the most effective turkey loads imagineable and talk about killing with authority!

I would imagine 2.25oz of buffered #2 in a 3.5" load would hit with a heck of a punch but, I'd be surprized if more than 1 or two pellets hit the head/neck on target at 50 yards.

On another note. I really wouldn't be opposed to shooting toms with #4buck. #4 buck out of a tight choke will print some nice patterns at 50+ yards and would probably fully penetrate the body of a mature tom. However, if you were to shoot one at close range, there wouldn't be much left to eat! If it were legal I'd probably put one in for the 3rd shot just incase I made a poor hit and needed something to break bones on the follow up.

Reloader

[ozark]

I am going to go out on a limb here. At 50 yards using No. 4 5 or 6 shot the pattern is going to be at least 30 inches in diameter. This means if the center of the pattern is on the head the whole bird will be sprinkled with pellets. The next limb is the use of heavy shot such as No. 2 or No. 4 buck shot. One pellet in the kill zone will anchor the bird. A .17 cal. pellet in the head with velocity will make mush out of the birds head. Although there are a few true 50 yard turkey guns out there shooting at that range is not for the average hunter. I believe everyone needs to pattern the gun he/she is going to hunt with and then if the pattern isn't centered in the sighting plane then the barrel needs to be bent to achieve that or have a scope or sights installed. After this I think the shooter needs to establish a maximum range (give or take five yards). Most hunters I have talked to have failed a time or to to anchor the bird. I have failed once and the feeling for me was worse than letting a dozen birds pass when out of sure kill range. The average turkey hunter lacks the ability to estimate yardage within 5 yards. Many can't guess within ten yards.

[ma]

Don't beat me upt to bad for posting this.

I killed a 21 lb with 11" beard today at 62 yds. Did not intend to shoot that far, I just misjudged the shot in an open field.

Was using the 3" 4x5x7 hevi shot load from Nitro Ammunition. This is the first bird I have shot with this load and was very impressed. There were 10 to 12 pellets in the head and neck and looked as though most passed thru. Head was pretty bloody!

I shoot a scope and just did not realize looking thru the scope that he was that far.

He dropped instantly at the shot and waved a wing about 4 times.

This load gives me over 200 pellets in a 9" plate at 40 yds thru a Primos Jelly Head tube.

Was this just a fluke? Don't know and may never know because I would not shoot a bird this far, but it was good enough today.

[ozark]

I have no experience with these hevi shot but evidently they have added considerable range to effective shooting. From the damage you describe it was no fluke. Congratulations.

[Reloader]

Ozark,

That's why they make LRFs.

Regarding hitting the whole bird, Maybe some do. I very rarely get pellets in the breast meat. A toms breast sits awful low when he's upright, the few times I get any pellets in the meat they will be at the top near the wings and are easy to cut out. I really can only think of about one or maybe two out of the last 15-20 I've killed where I actually had pellets in the breast. A tight choke and an aim point for the top of the noggin will reduce many of the stray pellets to the breast.

There are quite a few 50 yard turkey guns, the question is how many hunters are capable of using them properly.

Many of todays latest and greatest turkey guns, loads, and chokes are capable of getting 15-20+ hits in the vitals of a tom at 50 yards.

Reloader

[Reloader]

Savage Shooter,

Congrats on the bird!

That's some tight patterning, I've been hearing good things about both the Nitro Triplexes and the Jelly Head tube.

How much are those loads setting you back?


Ozark, Yes, the Hevi shot loads do offer alittle more range IF your gun will pattern with them. I witnessed bird shot at 70 yards with a 12ga 3.5" High Velcoity load of Hevi Shot #5s. It was a fleeing bird that had been poorly hit at a closer range. At the 70 yard shot the bird crumpled. I ran and picked up the hunter's bird and upon my arrival I could tell his wings and back were broken. #5s breaking bone at that distance really shows some energy and penetration.

That said, I don't feel they are worth 4 bucks a round!

I set 50 as my max distance and #6 copper plated lead does all I need at that range.

Reloader

[ozark]

4 bucks per shot shouldn't phase me. I think I am spending around 500 bucks per pound of venison and turkey that I take. Just put out over 60 dollars worth of corn this morning. Actually I just watched my frind fill up my feeder with corn I had just bought. Soon now, I will have loggers in to cut the marketable timber (oak and pine) off our 115 acres. No logs or tops will be left in food plots or shooting lanes. They do it my way or they don't get in. I am supposed to get 50 percent as owner and they take 50 for cutting, draging and hauling. I imagine that some turkey nest will be ruined by this but maybe not. On second thought I may wait until they have hatched out before letting them start the operation.

[Reloader]

Yeah, I hear ya, wild game meat sure ain't cheap! As Jeff Foxworthy says, "It's the most expensive meat on Earth."

Nothing wrong with getting alittle timber profit. Good money in timber at times, My family has an Ap Horse farm near our deer camp. My aunt just bought 66 acres heavily timbered for 2,000 and acre right next to the farm. She had it cut for a check of $103,000! No she only has 29Gs tied up in 66 acres. No too shabby.

I certainly agree on having them do it your way. Around here they pretty much trash everything and you end up having to pay some one to clean or burn or sometimes a chip crew will clean up the scraps for a tradeoff.

I've seen some darn fine hunting grounds get trashed by cutting.

Good luck

Reloader

[ma]

reloader said:

That's some tight patterning, I've been hearing good things about both the Nitro Triplexes and the Jelly Head tube.

How much are those loads setting you back?

I am ashamed to admit these are a touch over $6.50 every time you touch the trigger, but worth every penny to me when performance is really needed.

Considering that with a 2 bird limit here in AR that is only $13 annually! I burned more gas than that in one morning of scoutin and listenin.

[Reloader]

Considering that with a 2 bird limit here in AR that is only $13 annually! I burned more gas than that in one morning of scoutin and listenin.

I heard That!!!

Got a few questions about your set-up:

Are you using the .660 Jelly Head?

What is your exact set-up? (Gun, bbl length, scope, mount)

How many kill hits do you get on a turkey head target at 50 yards?


I just bought a new gun Friday. I got the 870 Super Mag 3.5", It's the one with the raised comb, cantilever scope base on the 23" bbl, and it's full camo MOBU.

So far I have two chokes, a Star Dot and a Extended Remington and I've probably got 20-25 boxes of ammo of varying makes to hit the patterning board with.

I'm hoping one of the chokes will work with the 3.5" Winchester Supreme XX High Velocity 2oz copper plated #6s as I have 9 boxes of them and it would be nice if they pattern well in this new rig. I have a bud that has a Jelly Head .660 he's going to let me pattern in my new gun before I buy one to see if it's any better than the two I have now.

I haven't decided which scope to buy yet. Right now I'm just going to use a spare Leupie 3x9 I have for patterning purposes and trying to find the right choke/load.

I'm thinking maybe the Nikon 1.5-4.5x20, the Leupold VXI 1-4x20, or the Burris FFII 1.75-5x20. Can't make up my mind which to go with.

Thanks for the info,

Reloader

[wilmsmeyer]

Reloader,

Sounds like a nice. mild recoiling setup. ;D ;D ;D